sometimes a little knowledge is worse then none

[Gerald Boggs]

I'm reposting this gentlemen's post from the judo forum on mma.tv

From: JoshuaResnick
Date: 20-Jan-03 12:28 AM
Member Since: 12-Jun-02
893 Total Posts Ignore User


sjb, i understand what you mean about a knee being a knee. problem is, those programs are a come and go thing. they tend to give off a very false sense of security to the women attending them and 6-weeks just isnt long enough to actually develop any life-long lasting techniques no matter how simple it is. here is an example from my own personal life..
before coming to SJSU i actually teamed-up with a guy who had a "fighting school." he wasnt well known, but he had good ideas and didnt charge a huge fee for anything. after one 6-week SD class there was a woman who was actually beaten, raped, and more or less left for dead. we read about it in the newspaper and i went to see her in the hospital. the only thing she told me was "i had so much confidence that i actually believed i was strong enough to hurt him if i kicked him right or got my fingernail in his eye. but, it just made him more mad."

she was an every-day, regular 9 to 5 mom of 2 kids. not especially attractive, not physically fit to any particular level, just a regular 30-something woman who didnt deserve what happened.

there is no way in hell that i will ever forget the guilt i felt over it. i gave every penny back out of my own pocket (because the other guy was an ass who refused to do it) and stopped teaching immediately.someday i might teach this stuff again.. but you can damn well imagine it wont be under the same "quick fix-it mentality" that these people out there are offering.. if i could transmit the guilt i felt over that to every single one of those instructors who teach these damn classes i would in a heartbeat.

self-protection isnt a quick-fix.. it is a lifestyle, a mental attitude, a way of acting and reacting that can only be learned over an extended period. i believe in this more then i do anything else i have ever posted in any thread.

flat-out. women should be allowed to carry a concealed hand-gun because some men are just disgusting pigs who deserve to be shot, killed and left for dead before they do it to another woman.

-resnick

[Hulk]

That was an unfortunate. Nobody deserves to be in such a situation as you stated above what happend to the woman.

You shouldn't take the blame. An instructor can only guide their students, thats it and with a full stop.

Nothing can prepare a person better for anything than experiencing it themselves... but like you subjected this thread, a little knowledge is worse than none!

[kengar]

Sad, but don't blame the training

Its sad that that had happened, but don't blame yourself or the school. There are black belts who get dropped on their but all the time. Some reasons for this, half hearted efforts in class and lack of follow through in the techniques, and sometimes it is just your day to lose.

From what you stated I get the impression that the lady did not want to become vicious and cause serious damage to the BG. A poke in the eye hurts, but with force in can be devestating. A 6 week course is good to give people an idea of how to defend themselves, but if they walk out of the class thinking they never need to practice or be aware of themselves then that is on them. Techniques tought are usually basic and effective if you train hard with the mind set that are going to seriously hurt another person.

I'm training to be a Women's instructor and our head instructor jumped on the class because there were a few women who did not want to feel the pain of the technique, or go onto the ground so they and their partners were half-assing everything. That is setting yourslef up for failure. I will not give in to a women's techinique until it is painful, that way I can explain to her what she is doing and how to properly applie the technique.

And as I said above, sometimes it's just not your day. Hope she's doing better and hope you've moved on.

[Kingston]

and the moral of the story is! Self defence should not be treated as a product wich you can buy or sell.

i heard people say they think they can take on an attacker, just because they take tai bo.....its not the fact that she got confidence from that course, the fact is she didn't know anything...
its like me taking a course in geography and thinking im suddenly a math and science major because geography incorporates those diciplines. The course was not to blame, some people just want a quick fix.

note: im not saying the woman was stupid, the fact is, it would have happened the same way even if she never had taken that course.....at least it boosted her confidence, at least a short time.


(the troubling thing[besides the rape] is that the instructor thought she could defend herself from a rape with those techniques)

martial arts are mostly just a fun hobby, self defence is a lifestyle.

[kh_s]

Don`t train MA as a self-defense

Really I shouldn`t be talking :P hahaha But Tae bo is a freakn` exercise thing isn`t it ? Or do people mistaken it as Muay Thai ?!!? to be honest, and lol, If I was a woman, living in a pretty rough neighbourhood, Buy a pepper spray or something. I think self-defense is garbage, my instructor thinks it`s garbage, and I my friends also agree. Well maybe it isn`t, but I`d buy a pepper spray and keep the stuff you were taught, sort of like a "back up" plan. My opinion (MY OPINION!) If you want to survive in the streets, buy a pepper spray. If your in martial arts, take it as a hobby, sport, or just learn how to fight like a bad ass
*cough* Muay Thai *cough*

About the pepper spray idea, hah! Is it legal ?

[Kingston]

Re: Don`t train MA as a self-defense

Originally posted by kh_s
Really I shouldn`t be talking :P hahaha But Tae bo is a freakn` exercise thing isn`t it ? Or do people mistaken it as Muay Thai ?!!? to be honest, and lol, If I was a woman, living in a pretty rough neighbourhood, Buy a pepper spray or something. I think self-defense is garbage, my instructor thinks it`s garbage, and I my friends also agree. Well maybe it isn`t, but I`d buy a pepper spray and keep the stuff you were taught, sort of like a "back up" plan. My opinion (MY OPINION!) If you want to survive in the streets, buy a pepper spray. If your in martial arts, take it as a hobby, sport, or just learn how to fight like a bad ass
*cough* Muay Thai *cough*

About the pepper spray idea, hah! Is it legal ?

im pretty sure some form of pepper spray is legal....probaly peperspray is as well....(i would assume, dont know why it wouldn't be legal).

ya tai bo is an exercise program, but its sort of like shadow boxing lol but only in the fact that you pretend to hit something...

i saw it on the commercial for tai bo, the woman was like "im not afraid to walk alone anymore" or something like "i feel like i can beat people up" cant remember the exact words. All you can do is laugh at that.

[ryanhall]

I think self-defense is garbage, my instructor thinks it`s garbage, and I my friends also agree.

I do not wish to offend, but I question just how much a 14 year old and his buddies would know about a topic such as personal protection.

For a variety of reasons, I'm not going to take the time to argue with you on this one. Suffice it to say that both you and your instructor are grossly misinformed. If you want the whole diatribe, just ask.

[kengar]

Re: Don`t train MA as a self-defense

Originally posted by kh_s
Really I shouldn`t be talking :P hahaha But Tae bo is a freakn` exercise thing isn`t it ? Or do people mistaken it as Muay Thai ?!!? to be honest, and lol, If I was a woman, living in a pretty rough neighbourhood, Buy a pepper spray or something. I think self-defense is garbage, my instructor thinks it`s garbage, and I my friends also agree. Well maybe it isn`t, but I`d buy a pepper spray and keep the stuff you were taught, sort of like a "back up" plan. My opinion (MY OPINION!) If you want to survive in the streets, buy a pepper spray. If your in martial arts, take it as a hobby, sport, or just learn how to fight like a bad ass
*cough* Muay Thai *cough*

About the pepper spray idea, hah! Is it legal ?

Your kidding me right! I'll have to stand with Ryan and I don't want to waste too much time on this.
1) It doesn't matter what neighborhood you live
2) Pepper spray is good, but not knowing how to defend yourself is ignorant. Umm, you don't know if its legal?? Do you know the different types, some work a lot better than others? Your telling people that all they need is pepper stray and their safe???
3) Self defense is basicly a MA system strip of all the bells and whistles. It is fighting. It is what your instructor is not showing to do on the street because he would be liable if you hurt your buddy playing around in school. Or because they don't know.

I will say this, I have seen some things taught to women that were just plain stupid.

[Gerald Boggs]

Came across this on the mma.tv forum.


From: andre
Date: 14-Feb-03 03:41 PM
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
1792 Total Posts Ignore User


At work last night we had to throw a few guys out for causing trouble.
While I was trying to escort one out, he grabbed me in a headlock and eyegouged me deeply. It hurt, but I was able to wrench myself free, get behind him, and choke him to sleep.

I then tried taking him up the stairs leading from the dance floor, but he was too heavy. I woke him up and told him to calm down. Once he realized where he was, he started fighting again. So I choked him out a second time.

By now, his friends are going nuts because they think Ive killed him. I dragged him towards the door then had to wake him up to calm his friends down. Once we were outside, he flipped out again and I went for the third and final choke. This time, his friends jumped in and started punching. The punches werent bad, but one guy gave me a good solid knee to the face.

The rest of the bouncers were smarter. They were outnumbered as well, but were able to get all of the guys out without getting hit.

I made this post because people always talk about eye gouges in a streetfight, and the guy I fought was able to stick his finger in at least a half an inch. Its not as bad as people make it out to be, and was fairly easy to stop/escape.



Reposted by Gerald Boggs

[kengar]

Any technique can fell for various reasons. A punch can be a devastating blow by some one who pratices strikes, and it can be a mere nuisance coming from a slobbering drunk aimlessly throwing his fist around.
An eye gouge can be a good deterent that leads into another technique to help fend off an attacker, but it can be done in a way to cause damage. An eye jab is even better, because you have momentum behind the strike hitting soft tissue with sensitive nerve endings. Warren Sapp, Tampa Bay's big DT/DE fell to his knee's when he took a thumb poke into his eye, and his eye did not look pretty. I have personally used an eye jab, mildly though, and it stopped the person that was screwing with me. He was ready to fight, then he was bent over crying about his eye with his buddy helping him.
The fact is you should never think that just 1 technique will be good enough to handle a situation and always be prepared to follow up with multiple strikes.

[ryanhall]

Gerald,

I'm not really sure what that post was about? Was it to make the point that eyegouges are not the be all and end all that some people think they are? Nothing works every time. The damage and effectiveness of an eye gouge really can't be called into question, so I wonder as to the objective that the repost served. It's good that the bouncer was able to defend himself, and he was able to adapt to his situation. If that is the purpose, then great. However, if the idea is to suggest, once again, that self-defense tools and teachings are not useful, or not as effective as their sporting counterparts, then I believe that it was wasted.

[Kingston]

i think that he was talking more about how self defence "gimicks".

"kick him in the crotch", or "go for the eye gauge" are not always effective. You need to have a large selections of techniques, and experiece using them if you want to be fully prepared. My opinion is, that goal, cant be reached in 6 weeks.

at least thats what i got out of it.

[Gerald Boggs]

No point, just passing on different experences.

Gerald Boggs

[mrniceguy148]

you're not to blame!

Bruce Lee once said something to the effect that a person is better off mastering only five techniques than dabbling in 1,000. That's a glowing endorsement for these kinds of short self defense courses. Chances are that your system is fine, but that doesn't mean that a rapest won't be able to stop some of your students from exicuting the things that you've taught them. Survival always comes down to two basic things: match-ups and circumstances. Unfortunately, on that particular day she lost on both counts. I'm sorry to hear that this happened............

Mr Nice Guy

[swan104]

Originally posted by Kingston
i think that he was talking more about how self defence "gimicks".

"kick him in the crotch", or "go for the eye gauge" are not always effective. You need to have a large selections of techniques, and experiece using them if you want to be fully prepared. My opinion is, that goal, cant be reached in 6 weeks.

at least thats what i got out of it.

I don't really know the first thing about rape defence, but I would assume that the simplest techniques would be the easiest to remember. I'm not really a big fan of all these multi-step techniques for survival - things like these take several years of practice in order for them to be implemented effectively. It will also depend on circumstance and possibly a bit of luck!! At least a jab to the eye or kick to the groin is easy to remember.

I also believe the women that attend these courses just want to know how to survive, and are not martial artists like the majority of posters on here. As martial artists, we talk about a whole range of hypothetical situations that could occur, and how we would handle them. We can train as much as we can, learn a new trick etc, but at the end of the day, it might prove to be useless. If a martial artist needs to ask these questions, even after several years of hard training, then it must be so much tougher for a women learning anti-rape defences in a short space of time.

That should not stop any of us from training though. Far from it. What I'm trying to say is that no womens self-defence course will cover everything possible outcome. They are not martial artists. They aren't going to cover JKD, Kali or MMA like we do.

I wish I had a definitive answer for all the women on anti-rape strategies, techniques etc. Maybe a "bread-and-butter" approach to defence is needed eg. the simple techniques as emphasis, and other specific techniques areas as backup? I'm sure a similar approach is used by womens self-defence instructors though.

Also, are there any assumptions made about the rapist eg. will grab you in a certain way, have no martial arts experience etc?

Steven