Shall we move on?

[Tom Yum]

OK we've been talking about a woman beeing able to defend herself. We've heard of examples of women who can kick butt and women who have been victims of assault. Some of you guys said that a woman can't hit as hard as a man, which is generally true but not allways.

If you haven't, spar against a professional female boxer/kickboxer and tell me what you think.

Then turn on your tv and watch COPS. You will see female assault victims - most of whom are unnactive, non-athletic, lower-middleclass ladies involved in escolating confrontations with their boyfriends/husbands who are drunk and violent. Yes, you will see that the guys generally hit harder.

Do you see the difference? A woman CAN develop ko power, but a true picture of most of the victims are likely frail looking women who do not train for self-defense, sparring or to stay in shape and the reason is that most people believe that assault is just a statistic. Nothing is fail proof from an assault, but having the knowledge/will power/way will SIGNIFICANTLY increase one's chances of surviving.

Now let's talk about something else, like cirriculum of a woman's self defense class or the effectiveness of pepper spray, stun guns, blades or 9 mm.

[kengar]

Let's see how this sits with you.
I just went to lunch and thought I'd stop at a book store, while there I picked up the Black Belt magazine and thumbed through it. There was an article titled Humane Self Defense. At the beginning of the article they stated that this a good defense system that gives women who may be getting raped an option that does not seriously hurt they're attacker. Women can protect themselves without permanent injury to their attacker. What!
They showed 3 defenses, the first might work removing a man strandled over you, the second was only a finger lock to release a hand grabbing the shoulder, to show them you don't want to be messed and I can't even remember much after that. If a technique works, it works, but to train women to be humane to their attacker seems to be counter-productive in teaching them to effectively defend themselves against rape. Do they have some misconstrued idea that rape is some how humane itself?
Don't remember the system.
I didn't by the mag just because that article hit the wrong nerve.

Ken

[Tom Yum]

Well, women are our better side when it comes to nurturing. They generally take the pacifist side of things, so I can understand the nature of the article. However, there should be a change in the way they think of defense. They need to be comfortable at close range fighting, because men try to use their strength to drag them away, carry them, slap them etc.

In order to fight, one must be fit. People will disagree with me, but who will more likely survive an empty handed assault from a 6' hardened assailant?

A) June Cleaver from leave it to Beaver.
B) "Sarah Connor" from Terminator 2.

You could spend a weekend seminar training June Cleaver in whatever style and she would not have the strength or ability to pull off techniques. Most women are behind the curve when it comes to realistic self-defense. They believe that Tae Bo, Shotokan Karate and Aikido will save them.

Not long ago, a young lady in leotards showed up to the MT class. She participated in everything and even asked to spar. When asked if she had experience, she said she did contact Tae bo for 6 months. Our coach just let her swing at him and flip kick away, but we rotated and she was sparring against a shorter, agressive lady who was probably lighter. Our guest was stunned why she kept getting tagged by this little old lady. They were only going lightly. Needless to say, she never returned. I guess Thaiboxing is not "corporate" enough for the ladies that don't have "time" for self-defense. The class rolls out the red carpet for all guests, but many don't like to sweat.

[Tom Yum]

1. Fitness, Fitness, Fitness
2. Getting comfortable in close quarters
3. Having an arsenal of realistic techniques - grappling on the mats, learning how to get back to stand-up and how to move/defend/attack while standing (NOT 2-step sparring)

I think a program like this would work wonders for a woman. It would make her become more comfortable about herself and let observing predators know that she is more than ready if she needs to be.

The problem is that many women (not all) are not comfortable in self-defense classes. They are afraid to get in close quarters, yet believe that pepper spray will automatically help them. I have noticed that young women (high school to early college age) and women who are 35+ take a keen interest in self-defense and are generally the ones who actually get in there and break a sweat.

[terry]

From what I understand, a portion of the attendees of a women's self-defense class (I don't know the exact numbers) have suffered violence or abuse in the past. Given that, shouldn't women's self-defense classes provide an interface to some of the services that women need to deal with and/or recover from violence/abuse?

I have tended to answer this question in the affirmative. I also observe that I'm not trained to do social service outreach, crisis intervention or any of that stuff. For example, Johnaleen, a while back had some interesting things to say about her experiences counseling women to make a safe, permanent exit from a violent situation. From what I understand, there is a lot to it. It's much more complex than just saying, "Well, leave."

I guess what I'm leading up to is the point that if you can teach the physical stuff of self-defense (which a lot of people manage to screw up nonetheless) that you're still a long ways away from dealing with the whole situation. What say you?

Terry

[Tom Yum]

Affirmative. I am also clueless about social services for women who have suffered such trauma. They would be helpfull.

Sometimes women do not take interest in self-defense until it is too late. Most people imagine it could never happen to them until it does. I can only speculate how a woman's self-defense class would be taught. As Ms. J said, an inside crescent kick is not going to block a thrusting knife.

I was also referring to the common observation that women do not know their self-defense options well enough. If a woman knew that she could use a staff or knife in kali/escrima, and if she wasn't intimidated, she would probably be gung-ho about it. One of my female friends took a liking to thaiboxing, but dropped it because she thought people would think she was weird. That's also another issue. She was a natural too.

[swan104]

I think too many women think of the martial arts as barbaric, macho and savage rather than a method of learning self preservation. I don't think the corporate environment helps either. Like you said Tom Yum, Tae Bo isn't going to teach you to fight. Martial athletes that train almost everyday for a number of years will still get hit in sparring. If that is the case, then what chance has a Tae-Bo person (which is bascially an aerobic workout) that has never hit anyone in their entire life got (apart from be aware and run)?

If I get hit in a class, whether it is in light sparring or even when doing a drill, I wouldn't think much of it and carry on. Maybe the idea of potential students getting hit is bad for business. If a girl gets hit in the face, then they won't go to training again. Its this mentality that has probably lead to the creation of "humane self-defence" for marketing purposes. There is so much marketing bullsh*t around these days which is bad for female self-defence.

[terry]

Ever seen 'em go at it at a women's Thai Boxing class? They can get pretty scrappy.

Terry

[Tom Yum]

Unfortunately no. But I wouldnt' mind seeing one.

[ceasarx]

I think womens self defense classes are a good idea but most are bogus. they teach a few finger locks and a leg sweep combined with a few safety tips and after a two day seminar they send these women out into the world thinking they can take care of themselves
we hold self defense classes that consist of 10 classes that are two hour long and we drill them on a few really effective sweeps and some ground fighting as well as safety tips and weapon use. we teach it for free and offer a ubi bo keychain to everyone that attends.
I wish there where less commercial schools out there that would offer more appropriate training.
Oh I will suggest to the head instructor that we should supply contact numbers for women that have been xictims

[Tom Yum]

Must read book on womens self-defense

I was at the library and skimmed thru this book:

Real Knockouts: The Physical Feminism of Woman's Self-Defense
by Martha McCaughey

If you guys can find it, let me know what you thought>
Lots of info about women getting through self-imposed feelings, assumptions about self-defense. There is an interesting section on women in boxing classes. Check it out if possible

Terry/Ms. J, have you seen this book before?

[terry]

No. It sounds interesting. I'll have to look it up. Thanks. : ) I really don't know that much about women's self-defense. I've assisted a couple of female officer friends on the physical stuff in a couple of seminars given by the local police department, but that's about it. It does sound like a lot of social work when you do it right, and I'm really not a social worker. I'm a thug.

I have, however, had good luck training women. It took years to develop a couple of strong female role models for our powerlifting team out of the circuit training crowd. But once we had four strong world-level competitors things started to snowball. A whole bunch of women looked at them and said "I can do that." Now our team has 20 women, about 7 of which are holders of or contenders for world titles.

I've seen a similar thing happen in Muay Thai. Once you have a couple of good female role models in a club many other women make it a goal to become one too. Fairtex also has had this experience, and now of the 22-24 people in the group classes about half are women.

Funny thing that I get a kick out of, though, is when women turn the corner on believing in themselves. It's always fun to see somebody who is out of shape and overweight and who works out mostly to loose weight start to believe that they can achieve something extraordinary. When that happens it's like somebody turned a light on in their soul.

Terry

[hikickinchick]

About what terry said...

The same happns in the class I go to, even though it's just TKD. I'm 16, and there's a 14 yr old girl and an 11 yr old girl who are really determined and dedicated. There's even a 25 year old or so woman who I am advancing with, and we are all really dedicated. Donna, the 25 year old, has fun in the class, though she's realistic enough not to expect anything out of it like real self-defense. She's only about 4'11 but she still tries really hard and can kick higher than most of the guys in the class. The 14 year old is much the same, and the 11 yr old and I were in a very similar situation.

We both sucked at sports, were slightly overweight, and didn't really have anything going on to look forward to. We both tried this and loved it, because it doesn't require any ball skills, and we can put our flexibility to work. I was in dance and she was in gymnastics, and none of those skills were really any good in softball or volleyball, which we both sucked at. But here we both are better than a bunch of the older men, though she's still only an orange belt. I started about a year ago and am a blue belt and an asst instructor, and I've founf a lot of friends in the class, though there's a definite age gap. We all have a common goal and a common interest, and it' exactly as terry said, it's like someone turned on lights in us. Now I have something to look forward to after school and after a long week, and i've lost weight as well. My mile run time went down by a full two minutes, and my teacher complimented me on it for the first time in my whole school life. Even though my place is an MCdojo, it's fun, and I think I'll stay with it for as long as I can find somewhere to train!

[Tom Yum]

TKD is a good art to get started in. I started training the summer before I entered highschool and 12+ years later I am still actively training in the martial arts (allthough my unofficial offseason has just begun)

Welcome to the forum.

[hikickinchick]

Thanks