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  • Originally posted by jubaji View Post
    To "lead" means to go first to guide and direct. If you "lead" with your head, meaning you deliberately put it out ahead of your body as the first line of penetration, you are going to get snapped down into a front headlock, shucked aside, or eat a bone-crunching crossface.
    Yes, the difference between spearing and shooting. That was always understood.

    Originally posted by jubaji View Post
    The idea is to keep the head, neck, and shoulders in a vertical plane as much as possible given the dynamics of the movement and the relative position/movement of your opponent.
    This is where the bullshit finds its way into your explanation. No one asked you to what degree the head leads. We only argued that it DOES in fact lead. I'm very aware of how the shoot is performed and I do understand what you're trying to say, but for the purposes of this discussion you're being deliberately vague so not to concede the point. The point being that ANY shoot or variation of a shoot is incredibly dangerous in a fight where your opponent may be armed. Regardless of how much control you're attempting to imply one would have during the shoot, you're completely wrong.

    First of all, your options become limited the moment you took a knee due to lack of mobility. There are options but none that would help you to control the weapon arm. And without that control you either have knockout, disable or kill the man with the knife with the first movement ... which is simply the shoot itself.

    You may argue this point by saying another option is to retreat, but lets be logical:

    Who's going to move faster: The guy moving his arm to attack from a standing position or the guy moving his entire body to avoid the attacking arm from a kneeling position? That's a no brainer.

    And then as if that didn't meet your quota for bullshit, you had to go even further and claim that in a situation like that you have time to decide your next move ... meaning that you won't react based on previous training, but instead you'll actually have the luxury of time to calculate, weigh and measure options while the man stands there with a knife in his hand. That in itself solidifies your position as an elite clown here at Pretend.net.

    Originally posted by jubaji View Post
    You should also keep your hips under you as much as possible as you close, which will vary according to the kind of shot as well as the other variables mentioned above. If anything is going to 'lead' it will be the hands and the lead leg. Now' if you drop a plumb line from the shooters nose at any point along the way, will it fall flat across his chest? Given human anatomy and the dynamics of the movement in relation to the opponent's movement, probably not, but that does not mean you 'lead' with your head. This is a classic case of not understanding what you are looking at.
    Oh but it is YOU that has not understood the point in contention. While KOTF may have been trying to get you to admit that the head does lead(and it does to some degree) that hasn't been my point. My point has always been that it doesn't matter if your head leads during a shoot or not as long as your entire thorax cavity and head are moving defenselessly towards a weapon. All you're doing is presenting a larger target. That fact in itself qualifies all wrestling attempts to close the distance as semi-suicide attempts when facing an attacker whose intentions are completely unknown. We aren't speaking about shooting in on the drunk uncle at the family reunion. We are speaking about shooting in on a mugger in an alleyway or on a thug in a park at night time. Whether he had a blade, a brick, a gun or a bottle you'd be fucked or at least be rushing in to get fucked up.

    That was ALWAYS my point.

    Originally posted by jubaji View Post
    Now, we could get into knee to shoulder position, setting up the shot, dynamic movement vs ideal form (a tough concept for you role-play types) but that should be enough to give you the basic idea IF you really want to understand.
    Actually, it would be nice if you did elaborate on those techniques as it would be something brand new for you to try here at Pretend.net, but aside from that those aspects don't hold much value for me as using those concepts in SD is a moot point. Those ideas cause a man to actually lose mobility when the goal is to cause your opponent to lose mobility and balance to control him WITHOUT getting caught up in wrestling matches where strength, weight and height weigh in as huge factors as to whether or not those techniques will work. Hence the weight classes in EVERY major wrestling competition in the world.

    Now let me say this:

    I am NOT in any way saying that wrestling doesn't have any value. Its EXCELLENT at controlling an opponent that you are able to approach and grapple with. It fosters incredible athleticism in practitioners. Still, its approach to dealing with armed violence is nonexistent and those who simply try to "muscle" their way through armed altercations usually wind up in two places: the ICU or the morgue.

    Attempting to shoot in on an armed attacker is tantamount to attempted suicide. Sure there's a chance you'll survive but do you really want to roll the dice on that one, especially when there are better ways of doing things?

    I guess that's your call, but I predict that you're comfortable as the head clown at Pretend.net and you'll be hoping to keep that position for years to come.

    Comment


    • What do you call a Shoot style attack from the back side of the armed suspect? I mean if you're not FACING the blade but you're in position to ambush from his blind side?

      If he is between you and the blade is much better than pointy end facing your front, eh?

      How fast do you move from forward to rearward attack? You seem expert in sharing the technique....

      I'm just saying the so called shoot has circular variations that seem not to have been considered?

      Minimize the jubashing... We all have limitations. TY

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Uke View Post
        for the purposes of this discussion you're being deliberately vague so not to concede the point. .
        I'm being very specific because that IS the point.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Uke View Post
          The point being that ANY shoot or variation of a shoot is incredibly dangerous in a fight where your opponent may be armed. .
          Hadn't you noticed that YOU were the only one insisting on talking about an armed opponent? No? You keep screeching about that although no one else was talking about it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Uke View Post

            First of all, your options become limited the moment you took a knee due to lack of mobility.
            You see why I took pains to be careful in my descriptions? You are assuming that any shot will necessarily involve a drop step all the way down on one knee. Why? Because there is more than one way to penetrating and controlling despite what kotf found in his brief google search of the subject.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Uke View Post
              There are options but none that would help you to control the weapon arm. .
              Again, only YOU are insisting the the scenario necessarily involves an armed man vs and unarmed one. No one else has been talking about that. If it makes you feel better I don't think and have never said nor implied that the best response to an armed attacker is a leg shot. Folk/freestyle wrestling does not involve training to combat armed opponents.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Uke View Post
                you had to go even further and claim that in a situation like that you have time to decide your next move ... meaning that you won't react based on previous training, but instead you'll actually have the luxury of time to calculate, weigh and measure options .
                Again this insists on circumstances no one else was talking about AND reveals a lack of experience in the actual topic that was being discussed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Uke View Post
                  We are speaking about shooting in on a mugger in an alleyway or on a thug in a park at night time. Whether he had a blade, a brick, a gun or a bottle you'd be fucked or at least be rushing in to get fucked up.

                  That was ALWAYS my point..

                  That was YOUR point but no one else's, and of course even that vague description involves far too many variables to make categorical statements about it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Uke View Post
                    strength, weight and height weigh in as huge factors

                    Those are always factors, and they become more and more "huge" the more closely the opponents are matched.

                    Comment


                    • First off, how funny is it that you heard jubidoo's howls for help? HoOoOoWwWwWwLlLl ...

                      Originally posted by Tant01 View Post
                      What do you call a Shoot style attack from the back side of the armed suspect?
                      I'd call it a sucker punch or in this case a blindside type tackle. That requires little skill and presents little danger in closing the distance because the attacker isn't even aware the tackle is coming. In that scenario a jump spinning back kick would be fine because ANYTHING that the attacker isn't prepared for or even aware of would and could work.

                      I could care less what angle it comes from. You wanna be on the ground with a man with a blade then you go right ahead. Tackling a man does not guarantee control of the weapon arm. There are better options for me. This isn't "The Last Action Hero" where people need to bust through windows and tackle every guy they fight.

                      I explained that there is value in that wrestling could control those who are not armed in situations where a wrestler feels safe or better yet BOLD enough to quickly close the distance like that when there is uncertainty.

                      Originally posted by Tant01 View Post
                      I mean if you're not FACING the blade but you're in position to ambush from his blind side?
                      That sounds like a scenario tailor-made for Brewer or Jubaji to writes stories meant to boast about how they executed a reckless and dangerous maneuvers .. and because they weren't killed or maimed during the execution the end justifies the means in their minds.

                      That's what it sounds like to me.

                      Originally posted by Tant01 View Post
                      If he is between you and the blade is much better than pointy end facing your front, eh?
                      This was discussed? Or is this your own position on the matter? The whole point of the question(from waaaay back) was to show people that shooting in on an opponent who may or may not be armed is foolish because your head is coming forward without protection, but one particular blowhard argued that that wasn't true. It took all of this to bring that truth to light, but quieting his stupidity is impossible.

                      Originally posted by Tant01 View Post
                      You seem expert in sharing the technique....
                      Thanks for the compliment!

                      Originally posted by Tant01 View Post
                      Minimize the jubashing... We all have limitations. TY
                      Minimize the jubidoo antics and the jubashing will disappear instantly!

                      I see you haven't mentioned a thing about his tourette syndrome meltdown on the USC forum. As funny as it was, it was still uncivilized.

                      Sorry to hear about your pooch, Tant01. Currently I'm kicking the shit out of mine all over this forum. He needs to be broken and while its proving difficult, its fun as hell.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Uke View Post



                        I'd call it a sucker punch or in this case a blindside type tackle. That requires little skill and presents little danger in closing the distance because the attacker isn't even aware the tackle is coming. In that scenario a jump spinning back kick would be fine because ANYTHING that the attacker isn't prepared for or even aware of would and could work.)


                        Like everything you guys keep saying about knife attacks (you know, the only kind you 'allow' to happen in your theories).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Uke View Post
                          You wanna be on the ground with a man with a blade then you go right ahead.

                          I'd sure as hell rather have him on the ground where I am controling every part of him than standing two feet away from him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Uke View Post
                            That sounds like a scenario tailor-made for Brewer or Jubaji to writes stories meant to boast about how they executed a reckless and dangerous maneuvers .. and because they weren't killed or maimed during the execution the end justifies the means in their minds.

                            That's what it sounds like to me.

                            You and your ilk take any experience as "boasting" because you have apparently never set foot outside the LARPer Lair, and resent people for "surviving" when you theories say they 'shouldn't.'

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pUke View Post
                              your head is coming forward without protection

                              Yes, yes we have established that you don't understand how a shot is executed, little bitch.

                              Comment

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