Anyahaseo

[Kwanjanim]

I am Jennifer Hastings, Owner and head instructor at Side Kicks Taekwondo Xtreme Training Center.

https://www.sk-tkd.com

[Szczepankiewicz]

Welcome to the forum. Nice website. All kinds of graphics and music. Very well done.


I have a question, I read that you are crosstrained in Hapkido and TKD. How are you training your team in 'self-defense' as you have stipulated on the site?

Spanky

[Kwanjanim]

My students are cross trained in hapkido. Basically we have dedicated classes for self-defense-armed and unarmed and we try to simulate street events as close as possible. My students are also trained in ground-fighting as well.

Thanks for your comments about the website.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Have you ever been involved in a street situation?

[Kwanjanim]

Yes, unfortunately I have been involved in street attacks. As a former police officer, I have had first hand experience. As a result of my martial arts background and police training I think I have a basic understanding of what works on the street and what doesn't.

[Szczepankiewicz]

How do you adapt traditional TKD and Hapkido training for use on the streets? Obviously your competition team operates under certain rules for tournaments. How do you do things differently to adapt the styles to self defense skills?

A lot of folks on the board are of the opinion that TKD is impractical for self defense. I am curious as to what adaptations one can make to correct this.

[eXcessiveForce]

Nice website, but I have a quesiton,

I see you have the title of master, but hold a fourth degree rank. what organization does the master title come from? Not an attack, just a question. I knew WTF was allowing Master rank at 5th degree. And ATA at 6th degree. I thought ITF was at 6th Degree as well. Was there a recent change?


I was just wondering since I had not heard of any.


I too taught my students self-defence both armed and unarmed. as well as joint manipulation and pressure points. and ground fighting. Now I have a JKD instructor that is cross training in TKD so that he can teach in my school. I wish more TKD schools would incorporate survival skills in their training like your school.

[Szczepankiewicz]

XF,

Can you expliain how you take TKD and make it viable for self-defense? As of yet, the practical applicaiton of TKD for self-defense is slim at best. This is strictly my opinion and I would love to see some evidence that could change my mind.

Thanks.

Spanky

[eXcessiveForce]

sure, i'm not exactly sure how to do that in a post but I will try to do my best.


TKD uses both hands and feet, but it also teaches knees, elbows eye gouges, and weapons defense.


Training is the key to making it effective for self defense. First most schools teach point sparring which is okay to work on technique but does not give the student suffcient information to use it for real.

I'm my school we use all ranges of combat and use all available techniques. Thus in sparring for blackbelt level you may start with a standing position, kicks can be aimed anywhere at the body, This is good for beginners because against an untrained person it is possible to throw a kick that is not even seen by the attacker simply because they do not know what the setup for a kick looks like. You also can throw the full range of boxing style punches, (however most TKD schools do not teach proper punching technique) But you also work throws/takedowns. and then grappling.

The idea is to always try to stay on your feet but that is not always possible.


For use against a stand up fighter, Jeet kun do infighting. If an attacker is untrained. Block the punch to the inside or outside depending on situation.
IF on the outside you have access to the centerline. Eye gouge or strike to the throat is effective from here or simply straight blast, followed by any number of kicks. or headbutt, elbow stikes, Low side kick to outside or back of knee. step behind attacker, choke out.

Against a trained attacker, Kicks must be limited due to skill level of the person being attacked. However since many people have not trained how to avoid kicks, sometimes they will rush into a kick and take suffcient damage to allow further kicking attenpts.

Against boxing only, stop kicks to the legs and kicks to the groin and midsection followed by elbows can keep them from getting into punching range until you decide to close and use the elbows or knees.

Kicks can be used using fluid shock much like thai kicks or you can snap the kick on a bony surface to break bone. Kicks can use shin, ball of foot, instep or heal or knife edge of the foot. Extreme care must be taken when instep or knife edge is used.

Footwork in important since TKD seeks to remain standing and to control distance.

It is therefore important to gaurd against being taken down. This can be done usually with knees in someone shoots for the leg or elbows or punches. Eye gouges can also slow an attacker down from a take down. Usually it is important to get out of the line of attack and vector in for an attack.

basically most Muay Thai is in TKD. Student must learn to hit their targets. Unfortantely most school miss this step. They teach sparring where the kick is "pulled" before hitting the target by slowing the kick down and not using their weight into the kick. Really the kick should be full power and full speed to the target. the difference is in sparring the target should be on the surface of the skin. In combat it should be through the target. Most students are not taught this and most instructors fail to understand why it is so important to teach hitting targets. The target is about the size of a quarter so it take a lot of practice to learn to throw advanced kicks in real life at full speed at such a small target.

Also by faking with the hands many martial arts cover up which usually leaves target areas exposed on the body and limited line of sight buy the person covering up.

Kicks can learn to be blocked by the shins.

I don't know if that helps any. It is what I do and I can show it to students and demonstrate it. But to type it out so that it makes sense is a little more difficult.

The problem that I have had in the past is that we use different name for techniques that are used in other arts. Rear Naked choke is not called a rear naked choke. A hook kick in TKD is very different from a hook kick in TKD. and A side kick in JKD is more like a back kick in TKD.


Even in point competition I have seen many knockouts within a few moments simply because of very good targeting and high speed.

Over emphasis of kicks is a problem of TKD in most schools, But kicks are just one more tool in the arsenal. Just like you wouldn't try to jab into an attacking straight blast, you have to know when to throw kicks and to what targets.

If someone trys to grab up high a kick to the ribs at least knocks the wind out of them, and can break the ribs. That can then make it easier for limb destruction and other techniques.

okay well i'm sure that was all clear as mud, but if you have more specific questions let me know and i'll do what I can to answer them

[ryanhall]

eXcessiveForce,

You mention that TKD has weapons defense. I have seen this at a number of TKD schools, and each and every one of them SUCKED. By sucked, I mean that the "defense" would get the practitioner killed every time. I never understood why every art was full of static knife defenses against things like a straight thrust from a set stance with the defender ready. Shit doesn't happen like that. It's either a stab with an unknown weapon or a fluid/crazy waving/stabbing attack. Maybe because the static ones look so pretty when they are done correctly?

About controlling the range: it's important, but kicking range (the TKD specialty) is by far the least so. Most "street" situations begin with the encroachment to punching or CQC range, making kicking a moot point.

About TKD body weapons: they do use knees, elbows, fists, etc. as you say, but in my opinion, they do it very poorly. I have sparred with TKDers, and the just don't hit hard. There's only one way to throw a hard rear cross, and it's the boxer's way. There's only one way to throw a good elbow, and the Thais have that market cornered. Effieiency is efficiency, and there is a best way of doing things.

Against a trained attacker, Kicks must be limited due to skill level of the person being attacked. However since many people have not trained how to avoid kicks, sometimes they will rush into a kick and take suffcient damage to allow further kicking attenpts.

Against boxing only, stop kicks to the legs and kicks to the groin and midsection followed by elbows can keep them from getting into punching range until you decide to close and use the elbows or knees.

I think that you are coming at this from a sporting mentality. In real life, you will never have the opportunity to feel out your opponent with a jab or try to gauge his skill. Things happen to fast, and it just isn't on the list. One doesn't have to train to avoid kicks to the extent that a tournament fighter does. Are you forgetting that in reality, you don't have time to stretch, get into a kicking stance, or get your bearings? Kicks will be lower and slower for those reasons alone. If you're wearing jeans, add some more time in there. Kicks should stay below the belt for a reason.

It is therefore important to gaurd against being taken down. This can be done usually with knees in someone shoots for the leg or elbows or punches. Eye gouges can also slow an attacker down from a take down. Usually it is important to get out of the line of attack and vector in for an attack.

I love eye gouges and knees too, but if you think those will be anywhere near fast enough to stop a shot and a double or single leg takedown, you are dreaming. It would take a lot of luck for either of those to work--not to say that they can't, just that it's very unlikely and risky.

basically most Muay Thai is in TKD.

Big disagreement here (I am not a MT practitioner by the way). That's like saying that Boxing is in Karate because they both punch. Not true. Muay Thai is a far superior standalone art just based upon technique alone. Conditioning just makes a great art more effective. I could never see a TKD man beating a Muay Thai man of the same experience and conditioning. Doesn't matter how the TKDer trained--if he sticks to TKD, he wouldn't win. They way that TKD does things just can't put up the same kind of power or speed.

If someone trys to grab up high a kick to the ribs at least knocks the wind out of them, and can break the ribs. That can then make it easier for limb destruction and other techniques.

If someone grabs your high kick, you are f$cked royally. Just don't kick up there, and it won't be a problem. Betting on knocking the wind out of someone is not a sound strategy.


Overall, it sounds like you have a solid curriculum at your school, but you do NOT teach TKD. You teach "TKJKD-Boxing" or something like that. You've improved upon TKD, but it's not the same thing that you started with. Am I making sense

[eXcessiveForce]

I understand where you are coming from Ryan. I guess the difference in the way I teach and the way that it is usually taught is quite different.

For instance we don't just use static drills for weapons. My chipped teeth can attest to that as can the stitches i have had.
From people I have worked out with they say that many things I teach seem to come from silat and Kali and a few other styles that I was not as familiar with. But I agree most people teach TKD ineffectively


as for kicks. I have hit people in the head in real life. Most people stood there and took it like a man because they never saw it coming. But everything has it's timing and it's place. I had somebody try to grab my leg once, but it didn't help they weren't strong enough. Even in sport competition I have taken hard enough kicks in the arms to feel them literally breaking. ANd i have seen people knocked out from kicks they never saw.

I can kick from almost any stance. doesn't mean that is what I would choose to use.

As for takedowns, the idea is don't be there but if you do get taken down our ground fighting system was based on Gracies.

Alot of it is how it is trained and conditioned. The big difference is TKD is more commercial now. So we teach people who want to learn combat and we learn to teach others who want to do martial arts for something else

As I told my instructors over the holidays. We teach a lot of people who may never take martial arts seriously so that those who want to make it a way of life can afford it. Every white belt that comes in helps take the financial burden of the students who have been there for years.


The system of TKD I studied is great at adaption. However the instructors often don't have a clue what is in the art or how it is to be used appropriately.


Since I have been in martial arts since I was four. I find that most people seem extremely slow and that I seem slow, but after talking with my training partners they cannot believe the speed I can throw my techniques.

TKD's main principle is left and right should be equal, hand and feet should be equal. Conditioning and strategy should be equal.

I have only met about 3 instructors of TKD that have taught even close to correctly. Even then I disagreed with some of the interpretation of technique.

As far as TKD beating muay thai, I have seen it of like skill level. The problem is finding TKD people who wish to spend that much time conditioning. Most people train for other purposes rather than hardcore self defense.

My opinion is and has always been It is my job to improve my students and try to teach them correctly. They may never be willing to do what it takes to be combat efficient but if they wanted to they could learn to be.

My personal favorite is head torques which i have practices at full speed, and choke outs.


remember that bruce took other styles and made JKD. The problem is most people never even learn what their systems have to offer in the first place.

for the record I do not believe WTF or ITF or Univeral TKD to be very effective systems however I have seen some good instructors who were able to take the system and make it work fairly well.

all of the previous scenarios are simply ideas to show what could be done using TKD.

In reality I teach TKD like JKD.

[Kwanjanim]

According to the World Taekwondo Federation - a 4th dan issued by the Kukkiwon, is a master rank.

[ryanhall]

Good response, EF. I understand where you are coming from on this one. Most people don't want to put in the time/effort necessary to make something work the way it should. This is a major problem in an art like TKD that is not that combat oriented to begin with--it's up to the practitioner to make their stuff work (I still have yet to find a pure TKD guy that I thought was any good but I'm sure they are out there). That's why I'm a big fan of combatives and boxing/thai. They can work for you relatively quickly if approached properly.

[eXcessiveForce]

Thanks for the info Kwan. I left the WTF a very long time ago and never much paid attention to what ranks were master ranks.

[Kwanjanim]

A lot of good comments here. Many people don't think that TKD is an effective self-defense art. I think every art has the abililty to be effective, but more importantly is how the practitioner utilizes his/her skills. Most people think that they are training for self protection, but seriously, how many of you train in real situations?How many of your techniques do you think will be successful in a real fight. Sure they look good when your fellow classmate grabs your wrist and you put them into a nice lock, or your classmate punches at you and you evade and counter attack....however it never happens that way in a "real situation".