Topic of the Day: Patriot Act

[Tom Yum]

I'm talking about assaults that were arranged and often uncovered during trials and investigations.

Do such complicated arrangements fall under activities to be monitored under the Patriot Act? Are even powerfull people subject to the guidelines of the Patriot Act?

The act was designed to undermine terrorist attacks in our country, but are there side benefits to this new legislation?

Talk amongst yourselves.

[Garland]

All I know is that it rips us of privacy and civil liberties that should be considered essential and keystone for our society.

Example; two nights ago, my girlfriend was dropping me off after she got off work. We had had a small dinner, and were simply going to go home and call it a night. I was saying goodbye to her for a minute, and asking her how her day was, and I kissed her and got out of the car, which was parked immediately IN FRONT of MY house.

I get out, hands in my pockets, and turn around only to have some asshole cop, who had sneaked up behind us turn a fucking flashilight on in my face. He yelled at me to get my hands out of my pockets, made me do the minority macarhena, and frisked me for weapons.
He then proceeded to grill me about what I was doing sitting in the car, and what I was doing at 12:00 at night. I told him my girlfriend was dropping me off, and that I lived right HERE. He then proceeded to grill me about the time. I asked him if there was a curfew for 20 year olds, and asked him if sitting in front of my OWN house was illegal. He said, "When people drop me off, I usually have them pull into the driveway."

We were parked on the side of the road. Plenty of room for other cars to get by, neigbhors park their cars there overnight..this isn't the issue at hand.
I told him that other people use the driveway, and we didn't want to block it if they came home early. Simple fucking answer.

He asked me to sit down on the curb, and he interviewed my girlfriend, and took both of our ID's to check for warrants. His pal rode up, a plain clothes cop...he called in back-up just to harrass me and my girl???

He then, trying to vindicate himself, even though I've never been arrested, tried to say that he could drag my girlfriend in for "warrants" because she had unpaid parking tickets. (she's gone two days earlier to court to establish a payment plan, and has been making installments) He proceeded to rail to me, "Oh, you see, you're learning a valuable life lesson here, this is how we catch people, this is police work." and then threatened to take my girlfriend to jail. She kept telling him about the payment plan, and he argued for awhile before relenting and letting us go...

I would have asked for a badge number, but it's a little difficult when the guys fingering the latch for his gun....

This has got to be wrong...should I file some sort of complaint, because if these guys can do this shit....we NEED change, NOW!

[gregimotis]

You should file a complaint. It won't get you any satisfaction, I wouldn't guess. it's got little too do with the patriot act, however.


Unless you read the Patriot act defintion of domestic terrorism.....

`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
`(B) appear to be intended--
`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(yes, I know it's a stretch)

[gregimotis]

Taken from http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveilla...rorism/PATRIOT


Why should I care?


Under PATRIOT, civil liberties, especially privacy rights, have taken a severe blow:

The law dramatically expands the ability of states and the Federal Government to conduct surveillance of American citizens. The Government can monitor an individual's web surfing records, use roving wiretaps to monitor phone calls made by individuals "proximate" to the primary person being tapped, access Internet Service Provider records, and monitor the private records of people involved in legitimate protests.

PATRIOT is not limited to terrorism. The Government can add samples to DNA databases for individuals convicted of "any crime of violence." Government spying on suspected computer trespassers (not just terrorist suspects) requires no court order. Wiretaps are now allowed for any suspected violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, offering possibilities for Government spying on any computer user.

Foreign and domestic intelligence agencies can more easily spy on Americans. Powers under the existing Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) have been broadened to allow for increased surveillance opportunities. FISA standards are lower than the constitutional standard applied by the courts in regular investigations. PATRIOT partially repeals legislation enacted in the 1970s that prohibited pervasive surveillance of Americans.

PATRIOT eliminates Government accountability. While PATRIOT freely eliminates privacy rights for individual Americans, it creates more secrecy for Government activities, making it extremely difficult to know about actions the Government is taking.

PATRIOT authorizes the use of "sneak and peek" search warrants in connection with any federal crime, including misdemeanors. A "sneak and peek" warrant authorizes law enforcement officers to enter private premises without the occupant's permission or knowledge and without informing the occupant that such a search was conducted.

The Department of Justice, with little input from Congress and the American people, is developing follow-on legislation - the Domestic Security Enhancement Act (nicknamed Patriot II) -- which would greatly expand PATRIOT's already sweeping powers.

[gregimotis]

This article: http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1334 regards the "alien and sedition act of 1798" which was passed similarly to the Patriot act at a time when the country was afraid of foreign threats both real and imagined here are some excepts....



1798, the United States Congress passed and President John Adams signed similar legislation. At base, the Alien and Sedition Acts prohibited criticism of the federal government and gave President Adams the power to deport any alien he viewed as suspicious. Americans found guilty of sedition faced prison terms of up to five years and hefty fines.


Fearing revolutionary France, many Americans at first supported the Alien and Sedition Acts. In Thomas Jefferson’s words, the people were “made for a moment to be willing instruments in forging chains for themselves.”




Under today’s PATRIOT Act, government investigators can more easily eavesdrop on Internet activity, FBI agents are charged with gathering domestic intelligence, Treasury Department officials are charged with creating a financial intelligence-gathering system for use by the CIA, and the CIA, banished from the field of domestic intelligence because of abuses in the Vietnam era, is permitted to resume domestic operations.

Separate from the PATRIOT Act, the Bush administration unsuccessfully argued to the Supreme Court that it could detain American citizens and foreign nationals on U.S. soil indefinitely and without access to legal counsel—all when the writ of habeas corpus has not even been suspended. Even John Adams only claimed such a power over aliens, not citizens.




I am a registered libertarian. I would like to hear from 'conservatives' in support of this administration: Please explain to me how smaller government, fiscal responsibility and individual liberty - the basic planks of the conservative agenda - are represented in the Bush administration?

[Tom Yum]

The Government can monitor an individual's web surfing records, use roving wiretaps to monitor phone calls made by individuals "proximate" to the primary person being tapped, access Internet Service Provider records, and monitor the private records of people involved in legitimate protests.

The government probably wants to keep tabs on those who might become a national threat. For example, there are some organizations which protest peacfully, but there are also similar organization taking actions that could endanger other's lives who are trying to earn a living.

For example, those who are passionate about the planet and its natural resources may hold protests, but others from such groups have gone so far as to plant iron spikes in trees. When a team of loggers goes out to cut and collect wood, those spikes can cause alot of damage to machinery and potentially harm human lives of hardworking citizens. What are we going to do if we can't grow, harvest and refine wood? There goes paper, paper products like wrappings, storage and materials for furniture, buildings as well as the jobs related to them.

How about these fellas creating artificial wood product, marketing it and pricing it competitively? (Its got to be better than 'particle board'!!) It beats sabotaging costly equipment and endangering lives any day of the week, refreshens staggering American ingenuity and could make a nice living for the inventor. I'd bet any President, Republican, Democratic or Libretarian would be pumped that such a product was produced during his administration.

As for privacy protection, yeah nothing's private anymore but this is nothing new. Maybe my interesting phone conversations brightened one CIA agent's day (or bored him silly...lol).

Makes you wonder if the Hollywood format is true. You know, the scenes were you have several guys sitting in an unventilated van, smoking cigs, drinking coffee and writing script while listening to phone conversations with oversized ear muffs....

[Toudiyama[NL]]

For example, those who are passionate about the planet and its natural resources may hold protests, but others from such groups have gone so far as to plant iron spikes in trees. When a team of loggers goes out to cut and collect wood, those spikes can cause alot of damage to machinery and potentially harm human lives of hardworking citizens. What are we going to do if we can't grow, harvest and refine wood? There goes paper, paper products like wrappings, storage and materials for furniture, buildings as well as the jobs related to them.

I think the problem is the Grow part, as far as I know the actions of those "greenies" are against loggers that don't plant new trees, which makes the loggers parasites ( like I find anyone that only takes from nature, a parasite) they do not grow anything
Also Paper consist mainly of glucose and there is woodfree paper

Don't get me wrong, I detest the actions but only for the first reason you gave, it is dangerous for human life

[Garland]

I think the problem is the Grow part, as far as I know the actions of those "greenies" are against loggers that don't plant new trees, which makes the loggers parasites ( like I find anyone that only takes from nature, a parasite) they do not grow anything
Also Paper consist mainly of glucose and there is woodfree paper

Don't get me wrong, I detest the actions but only for the first reason you gave, it is dangerous for human life

Of all the unmitigated gaul, you attack loggers?!
I will tell you this, sometimes corporate America does rape the land, but in some countries, i.e. the undeveloped third world countries where we REALLY do the shit, the people logging are doing so so that they may LIVE. Hear that, not to turn a profit, but to survive.

The resposibility doesn't rest on the loggers, it rests on buisness and the economy itself. Buisness practice can change toward the better when corporations learn that they can be ecologically friendly and turn a bigger profit, not only by improving public image, but also by cutting overhead by avoiding future regulations that will affect their long term costs, and also by eliminating wastes and recycling materials.

Quickie example, and this is fresh because I recently attended a Sharon Bloome lecture....
McDonalds cut down the size of the napkins they give you.
They save money and trees.
Simple, effective, and beneficial to both parties.

Our current economy isn't very compatible with nature, it's true...but it DOES NOT need to stay that way. Of course, it doesn't matter, because Karl Marx and Engle's foreshadowing is about to play itself out...um...in the next ten years probably, as China cuts the dollar from the yuan (because of the falling value of the US dolla dolla bill, y'all), and euro and the yen skyrocket relative to the dollar, and ever foreign interest and buisness drops US stocks as they become worth less than their initial investment.

As the US economy falls into a huge downward spiral, and since we are the primary consumer of global goods, the exports of other countries will fail, and everyone will be up shit creek, without a paddle, in the same sinking boat.

That is what happens when some dumbshit president cuts taxes during wartime and ups the deficit to 650 billion dollars. Thanks alot Bushy boy!
Fucking retard.
Whoever voted for him should just pat themselves on the back...thanks for accomplishing the undoing of these screwed up institutions. Crisis precipitate change, and you're all very brilliant...it's like reverse psychology, you all wanted the Capitalist bourgoiese system to crash and burn, because your caring humanitarians behind that harsh exterior, right Republicans???

Thank you. Hopefully the system will be replaced by a better one, which I doubt with the growing nationalism.

Don't "God Bless America" sound a tit bit like "Duetschland Uber Alles"?

[Tom Yum]

The resposibility doesn't rest on the loggers, it rests on buisness and the economy itself. Buisness practice can change toward the better when corporations learn that they can be ecologically friendly and turn a bigger profit, not only by improving public image, but also by cutting overhead by avoiding future regulations that will affect their long term costs, and also by eliminating wastes and recycling materials.

Quickie example, and this is fresh because I recently attended a Sharon Bloome lecture....
McDonalds cut down the size of the napkins they give you.
They save money and trees.
Simple, effective, and beneficial to both parties.

You've made some interesting points, but you can't forget that the sole reason people do business is to make money.

That means that the business offers a good/service that benefits someone in exchange for payment. When the business gets paid it can pay employees, interest, taxes and ideally end the day with a little more money than it started with.

Your McDonald's example is an example of intelligent business. They research an objective, execute, save money (primary reason for cutting down size of napkins) and earn some good will from the save tree foundations.

My good friend Garland.... so young.....so ideal!

Apply some of that energy to your life's passions, friend. We live in a country that has so many opportunities.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Of all the unmitigated gaul, you attack loggers?!
I will tell you this, sometimes corporate America does rape the land, but in some countries, i.e. the undeveloped third world countries where we REALLY do the shit, the people logging are doing so so that they may LIVE. Hear that, not to turn a profit, but to survive.

Poachers in Africa could say the same, Babysealclubbers in Canada could too as could illegal loggers in South America

You have this nice saying in your country, If you ain't part of the solution, you are part of the problem

Loggers are part of the industry and therefore imho part of the problem

I couldn't care less if fishermen do so to survive, they take from the Nature that is from us all and do not put back into it, that make people like them parasites

[Sensei Saki]

Who is part of the solution you are part of the problemLoggers are part of the industry and therefore imho part of the problemI could not care less if fishermen do so to survive they take from the Nature that is from us all and do not put back into it that make people like them parasites?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

this is the second time that part of my post is copied into Sensei Saki's

[Garland]

Poachers in Africa could say the same, Babysealclubbers in Canada could too as could illegal loggers in South America

You have this nice saying in your country, If you ain't part of the solution, you are part of the problem

Loggers are part of the industry and therefore imho part of the problem

I couldn't care less if fishermen do so to survive, they take from the Nature that is from us all and do not put back into it, that make people like them parasites

which is easy to say when one lives a priveledged life.

[Sensei Saki]

The obvious one.

[Garland]

You've made some interesting points, but you can't forget that the sole reason people do business is to make money.

That means that the business offers a good/service that benefits someone in exchange for payment. When the business gets paid it can pay employees, interest, taxes and ideally end the day with a little more money than it started with.

Your McDonald's example is an example of intelligent business. They research an objective, execute, save money (primary reason for cutting down size of napkins) and earn some good will from the save tree foundations.

My good friend Garland.... so young.....so ideal!

Apply some of that energy to your life's passions, friend. We live in a country that has so many opportunities.

I never denied that industry and the economy exist to make a profit...but that since they are there, and not going away anytime soon, (unless...) corporations do have an obligation to become more ecologicly sound and humanitarian.
Capitalism is based on complete and utter exploitation. If you want to bad mouth the system...why focus just on the enviornment, how about also directing an eye to the working poor?

Oh...and my primary focus was not on industrial buisness, but rather on the logging based upon sustinence.

On the same hand, you cannot blame those who hunt seal for sustenince (like several indigenous tribes who have been as part of their cultures, basicly, forever.)

Fishermen....???
Do you even eat fish Toadie?
Vegan...if not you really should shut the **** up. Nobody likes hypocrites.
Drink beer? Like sugar?
Dipshit.
People like you make me sick and define the tyranny of the left.

True...some fishing practices are fucked up, i.e. dragnetting and long-lining, but the rest of it is okay...what is your problem?
Give me a sincere and articulate rebuttal, and maybe you can convince me that your not an idiot, till then, tra ta.