Amish School shooting?

[treelizard]

Nothing wrong with being a little hard nosed, every now and then... ideas need to be tested against reality and possible pitfalls. If anything, you're refining Mike's idea rather than rejecting it.

Actually, I am saying that since the schools will almost certainly not implement it (based on the experience of friends of mine who have tried to get security in the school system and gotten blown off for years) it's a good idea to look at other options.

If you could post the stats on teacher intervention on any of the mentioned forms of school violence, it would certainly add to the discussion. If not stats - documented instances.

One of my teachers came across a girl kicking another girl who was down on the floor. They both outsized her and outweighed her. She called security and also got another teacher to help her, and the two of them got one girl pinned against thelockers. Security showed up and knocked myt eacher to the floor and shoved her against the lockers because they couldn't figure out she wasn't the one in the fight (and she was wearing a suit.) Basically two teachers took care of the situation on their own. Another time she was in the cafeteria when two girls were fighting and the security guard who was standing one foot away ignored the student teacher's request for help. He thought, as he said later, that "she was just a student". Meanwhile, the teacher got the two girls separated, got one ina bearhug and carried her out of the cafeteria. Then the football coach took the other girl away.

I know many other teachers that have worked in the inner city schools and had things thrown at them and they all say the stopped situations before they happen. This isn't really documentable because nothing happened. Not to mention all the kids pulled into the guidance counselor's office because they are writing about guns and such in their school papers. Who knows when violence is prevented and when teachers are overreacting.

[treelizard]

If it were to come through, you could even try to take credit for it. And if that doesn't work, you could always scrutinize it more thoroughly until you find something wrong with it and protest it.

Or I could try to work on something that works, such as getting teachers trained, which is what I'm doing. What are you doing other than supporting ideas that would need years of legal precedent to overhaul and thousands of dollars to implement?

[Tom Yum]

Actually, I am saying that since the schools will almost certainly not implement it (based on the experience of friends of mine who have tried to get security in the school system and gotten blown off for years) it's a good idea to look at other options.

How many different school districts were approached in the particular city or state?

One of my teachers came across a girl kicking another girl who was down on the floor. They both outsized her and outweighed her. She called security and also got another teacher to help her, and the two of them got one girl pinned against thelockers. Security showed up and knocked myt eacher to the floor and shoved her against the lockers because they couldn't figure out she wasn't the one in the fight (and she was wearing a suit.) Basically two teachers took care of the situation on their own. Another time she was in the cafeteria when two girls were fighting and the security guard who was standing one foot away ignored the student teacher's request for help. He thought, as he said later, that "she was just a student". Meanwhile, the teacher got the two girls separated, got one ina bearhug and carried her out of the cafeteria. Then the football coach took the other girl away.

I know many other teachers that have worked in the inner city schools and had things thrown at them and they all say the stopped situations before they happen. This isn't really documentable because nothing happened. Not to mention all the kids pulled into the guidance counselor's office because they are writing about guns and such in their school papers. Who knows when violence is prevented and when teachers are overreacting.

I think you've got a point.

Brawls and scuffles can be handled by teachers; I've seen this too but I don't have any documentation. Your example shows that there's a lot more girl on girl violence these days too. Teachers should get more training in classroom management, but first aid as well.

If the teachers you are talking to say that they can handle small-scale violence, then why would they need any additional training than what they have?

[treelizard]

How many different school districts were approached in the particular city or state?

I don't know as I don't have friends in every single school district in the city or state.

If the teachers you are talking to say that they can handle small-scale violence, then why would they need any additional training than what they have?

You are coming so, so, so, so close to being able to answer your own question. So that they can handle small-scale violence *better* (or the ones that can't will learn how to handle it before making too many mistakes in real life) and so they'll be able to know their options in situations that aren't as small-scale.

I've handled small-scale first aid situations well without training, but it didn't stop me from getting more training.

[Tom Yum]

Or I could try to work on something that works, such as getting teachers trained, which is what I'm doing. What are you doing other than supporting ideas that would need years of legal precedent to overhaul and thousands of dollars to implement?

Can you give examples of how trained teachers could have stopped the Amish shooting incident? or a Columbine-like incident?

Why weren't they able to minimize or stop these incidences? And what kind of training would you suggest they undergo against lets say a small group of armed students? A crazed individual with a high powered rifle?

[treelizard]

Can you give examples of how trained teachers could have stopped the Amish shooting incident? or a Columbine-like incident? Why weren't they able to minimize or stop these incidences?

Re: Columbine: go back and reread what I wrote about bullying. Re: the Amish incident, go back and reread what I wrote about situational awareness. Re: being able to minimize or stop these incidents, go back and reread what I wrote about training, as well as what I wrote about how people who haven't minimized or stopped something in the past doesn't mean they'll be incapable of doing it in the future.

And what kind of training would you suggest they undergo against lets say a small group of armed students? A crazed individual with a high powered rifle?

The PART link I posted gives courses on crisis de-escalation, evasion, distinguishing between obnoxious versus dangerous behavior, reducing risks in attire, mobility, knowledge of precautions, observations, self-control, identifying triggers and alternatives, determining response, evaluating outcomes, etc. Other courses like the one that's in development right now that I'm working on organizing teach similar things. The guy who is planning on teaching has done work in law enforcement and has worked in the schools.

A SEAL I asked about this spoke about awareness, practicing evacuation drills, and being skilled in simple hostage scenarios, etc.

[Tom Yum]

as well as what I wrote about how people who haven't minimized or stopped something in the past doesn't mean they'll be incapable of doing it in the future..

The PART link I posted gives courses on crisis de-escalation, evasion, distinguishing between obnoxious versus dangerous behavior, reducing risks in attire, mobility, knowledge of precautions, observations, self-control, identifying triggers and alternatives, determining response, evaluating outcomes, etc. Other courses like the one that's in development right now that I'm working on organizing teach similar things. The guy who is planning on teaching has done work in law enforcement and has worked in the schools.

Seems like a good general prevention program, but that still doesn't adress how a teacher could prevent the Amish school shooting....

[treelizard]

Sounds like sound classroom prevention, but that still doesn't adress how a teacher could prevent the Amish school shooting....

It would of course depend on the actual layout of the school, which they should go over with someone qualified in addition to practicing drills, etc. and taking measures to enhance their own security. Or you could wait for the Amish school to hire five security guards. Is that your only suggestion? Oh wait, it wasn't even your suggestion.

[Tom Yum]

It would of course depend on the actual layout of the school, which they should go over with someone qualified in addition to practicing drills, etc. and taking measures to enhance their own security.

PARADISE, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A heavily armed truck driver who was prepared for a long standoff barricaded himself in a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday, killing five girls execution-style before killing himself, police said.

Six other girls were bound and critically wounded in the attack, which police said appeared to be a revenge killing for an unspecified incident that occurred when the gunman was a boy.

The attack was the nation's third deadly school shooting in a week. (Watch what happened in schoolhouse, community's reaction -- 2:21 )

The gunman, 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts IV, carried three firearms -- a shotgun, a semiautomatic pistol and a rifle. State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said Roberts also had a stun gun, two knives and a bag holding 600 rounds of ammunition.

He was also carrying an assortment of tools and other items, including toilet paper, that led police to believe he was prepared for an extended siege.

"It seems as though he wanted to attack young female victims, and this is close to his residence. That's the only reason we can figure that he went to the school," said Miller. (Watch commissioner's dramatic account of shootings -- 7:44 )

"It's a horrendous crime scene," he said.

The shooting took place in Lancaster County, about 60 miles west of Philadelphia, at a school run by the Amish community. There were 26 students in the school Monday, 11 of them girls.

The school teaches students ranging from 6 to 13, with some older students working as teachers' aides. Two students and an aide were killed, one of them dying in a trooper's arms, Miller said. Two other girls died while hospitalized hours after the shooting.

The wounded girls were taken to several hospitals in the region, some of them with gunshot wounds to the head.

Roberts drove a commercial milk truck, said Miller. He was not Amish, was not previously wanted by authorities and had no known criminal history.

The Bart, Pennsylvania, resident had three children, and left several notes for his family "along the lines of suicide notes," Miller said.

The notes were "rambling" and "didn't make much sense," Miller said. (Read Miller's remarks)

Roberts did not respond when police at the scene attempted to communicate with him, and troopers were preparing to storm the schoolhouse before the shooting began, Miller said.

Roberts' wife tried to call him when she found the notes, Miller said. He returned the call on his cell phone, told her he wouldn't be coming home and "that he was acting out to achieve revenge for something that happened 20 years ago."

The suspect called 911 and "made a declaration that if the state police didn't leave the property he would start shooting people within 10 seconds."

"Within seconds, he just started firing in rapid succession."

Police then stormed the schoolhouse through the windows and found Roberts dead, Miller said. He had fired at least one shotgun blast at police.

Gunman let boys go

The commissioner said Roberts had worked a shift that ended about 3 a.m. Monday and taken his children to their bus stop before beginning his rampage.

Police said he had barricaded himself in the schoolhouse with two-by-four and two-by-six pieces of lumber, which he brought to the scene in a borrowed pickup truck.

"He planned this out meticulously," the commissioner said.

Miller said that during the attack, Roberts apparently told students to line up in front of the blackboard. He began to tie his female captives' feet together. He let the 15 boys in the classroom leave.

Miller said Roberts also allowed an adult female who was pregnant to leave with three other adult females who had infant children with them.

The teacher who was released was able to alert authorities, Miller said.

"Apparently, there was some sort of an issue in his past that for some reason, he wanted to exact revenge against female victims. That's all I can tell you right now," Miller said.

Miller said Roberts' grudge did not appear to involve the Amish community and that he may have chosen his target out of convenience, perhaps thinking "getting into a school like this was maybe just a little bit easier."

A man who said he was a friend of the Roberts family, Dwight Lefever, read a statement attributed to the gunman's wife, Marie Roberts, according to CNN affiliate WGAL.

"The man that did this today was not the Charlie I've been married to for almost 10 years. My husband was loving, supportive, thoughtful. All the things you'd always want and more. He was an exceptional father," the statement said.

"Our hearts are broken, our lives are shattered, and we grieve for the innocents and lives that were lost today. Above all, please pray. Pray for the families who lost children today, and please pray, too, for our family and children."

Lancaster County's 911 Web site reported dozens of emergency vehicles -- including at least nine ambulances -- were dispatched to Bart Township shortly before 11 a.m. for a "medical emergency." The Lancaster County emergency communications Web site showed 20 incident calls listed to the normally quiet Bart Township at 10:48 a.m.

Shortly after the attack, men, women and girls in traditional Amish clothing gathered in small groups outside the country schoolhouse along a dirt road. Horse-drawn carriages could be seen in a nearby parking lot.

The school is one of about 150 that serve the Amish population of about 200,000, said Donald Kraybill, a sociology professor at nearby Elizabethtown College.

"They typically are one-room facilities operated by Amish parents," Kraybill said. "There usually are not any security concerns or security risks in the schools, so this is quite a shock."

Aaron Meyer, who owns a buggy company in the nearby village of Bird in Hand, said the largely rural Amish country had experienced nothing like the crime in the 25 years he has lived in the area.

"Many of these townships there have no police at all, because there's no crime," Meyer told CNN.

A White House spokesperson said the president was "deeply saddened and troubled by the recent school violence" and that the administration would convene a conference on the subject next week. (Full story)

On Wednesday, a 53-year-old man entered a high school in Bailey, Colorado, where he held several female students hostage at gunpoint. He shot one girl before killing himself seconds after a SWAT team stormed the classroom. (Full story)

A high school student near Madison, Wisconsin, is suspected of fatally gunning down his principal on Friday, after he complained about being bullied and was disciplined for carrying tobacco. (Full story)

[Tom Yum]

I pretty much agreed all along with your suggestions for classroom management and you are doing something (kudos). But honestly, it would take some well-trained security to prevent something like the above....

[treelizard]

But honestly, it would take some well-trained security to prevent something like the above...

And like I said, an Amish schoolhouse with probably only 30 students is not likely to spend more than their annual budget on a security guy.

[Tom Yum]

And like I said, an Amish schoolhouse with probably only 30 students is not likely to spend more than their annual budget on a security guy.

You're right. Sadly its an economics thing and again we could spin this topic off into a really, really interesting conversation.

[treelizard]

Actually what you said was

Drive on and don't worry about it; things probably aren't as bad as we think.

and other such things.

As far as security guards, your example only demonstrates that people have to get killed before security is hired--still waiting for the school district to get better security for the districts that I know teachers in. They've been waiting for years.

[Tom Yum]

As for this post, I'm glad you were waiting for Colorado to lead the way. As it turns out, the Colorado High School involved in the latest incident here just implemented their solution. Guess what it was? They added security guards to their staff!

So there you have it. We're leading the way. Now quit your whining and follow the lead you said you were waiting on.

You just made my day, brother .

[Tom Yum]

Actually what you said was and other such things.

As far as security guards, your example only demonstrates that people have to get killed before security is hired--still waiting for the school district to get better security for the districts that I know teachers in. They've been waiting for years.

Proverbs 25:24
It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop than to share a house with a disagreeing, quarrelsome, and scolding woman.