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  • Originally posted by jubaji View Post
    Is that a wrestling coach is worth any 30 armed and trained security personnel!
    isnt danfagella a wrestling coach?
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    • Originally posted by 3mptin3ss View Post
      isnt danfagella a wrestling coach?


      .................no.

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      • Originally posted by treelizard View Post
        Not any more cliche than your contradictory comments on noble, quarrelsome women.
        Who said women, much less people, were simple and couldn't fit contradictory comments?

        My points were already stated.

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        • Originally posted by jubaji View Post
          I'm ready to journey to the west!
          Ok jubaji, let's support the cause for increased security measures and personnel in public school!


          jubaji taking command over his new formed army.
          Last edited by Tom Yum; 12-24-2006, 02:17 AM.

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          • LOL

            As you can see, it was a little chilly the day they took that picture of me!

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            • Originally posted by jubaji View Post
              LOL

              As you can see, it was a little chilly the day they took that picture of me!
              Those chilly Shan dong mornings...

              Any new ideas to increase security measures and personnel at public schools?

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              • Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
                Those chilly Shan dong mornings...

                Any new ideas to increase security measures and personnel at public schools?
                LOL! Now you see my frustration (maybe)-- lots of rants but very few suggestions for things that will actually help teachers or do anything other than alienate them because they wouldn't even carry a gun in school if it was legal and because their security guards suck and they haven't had any luck getting any changes made and are looking for other options.

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                • This a long post, I apologize beforehand that I didnt read it all. Its very late here, and I'm kinda tired. But I have been thinking about this lately.

                  I think the problem is currently worse than ever before. I cant say I know what the reason is, but I suspect its because school is mandatory. Everyone is basically forced to go to school and take the same classes, day in and day out. They are fed cafeteria junk food, and have very little supervision. I certainly would not like to be treated like that as an adult, Its not surprising that teenagers feel the same way. I dont think that everyone is meant to do the same thing in life. Some people are meant to be artists, some musicians, some are meant to be tradesmiths, and some are meant to go onto college and become professional learners, etc. These years to them are a waste and they know it. Moreover, School is no longer a priveledge. School should be a priviledge and denied to those who arent ready. More tradeschools need to be built that teach skills that a person can use to instantly start making money once they learn the skill. Noones going to graduate highschool, knowing math, science, and all those things deemed so important in highschool and go out and make a living...unless of course they want to serve food. By the time most kids graduate highschool they cant even make it on their own, they need so much support from their families. Not everyone has supportive families, so in these kids cases they either go to college and are forever in debt, or they start working in fast food and are forever broke. Maybe they can sell drugs and actually make some cash. Even jail is better than being homeless. Why cant there be more than one type of acceptable school for kids? Some people dont want to conform and be like everyone else, they want to do their own thing. And by forcing them to do what everyone else is doing against their will, and without purpose causes them to act out like this. Its naive to think that people have changed so much, and that kids today are different than kids 100yrs ago. Everyone blames the kids, noones blaming the schools.

                  I might not make much sense here, sorry if its illegible. Going to bed now.

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                  • Originally posted by treelizard View Post
                    LOL! Now you see my frustration (maybe)-- lots of rants but very few suggestions for things that will actually help teachers or do anything other than alienate them because they wouldn't even carry a gun in school if it was legal and because their security guards suck and they haven't had any luck getting any changes made and are looking for other options.
                    I am very aware of your frustration.

                    I attended a public highschool that had its share of student violence problems - mostly small skirmishes, weapons on rare occasions; there were two shooting one year on campus.

                    In one of those shooting, the victim died.

                    As I mentioned before, teachers could use more modern training in classroom management covering topics that you mentioned - basic negotiation, first aid etc. This is something, but it is not enough - reference the Quaker shooting.

                    I support Mike's idea because it places well-trained professionals in position to protect our children. They could be on foot in doors or monitoring the perimeter of the campus.

                    In addition, Mike has created a business plan and the potential for new jobs while offering a viable solution. Sure there's red tape, but school districts are not uniform in any given city or state - reducing the possibility of pushback.

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                    • I attended a public high school too where there was a lot of violence. We had armed security guards, they just couldn't be everywhere at once. While I still support getting more/better security guards (or ANY security guards in some schools), I still think it's important to look at many other things people can do while they're waiting. I had the same problem at my work. Our security sucks. The more we ask for better security, the more they come up with stupid non-solutions to implement. So my coworker and I have looked at other options. And we call the cops a lot. But we still have options available before they show up. Etc. etc. etc.

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                      • I'm back...

                        Wow.... I must admit that when I started this thread at the beginning of the week, I never thought that it would go out to 10 pages. I appreciate the dialogue and apologize that I was unable this past week to stay abrest of all the developments.

                        Please forgive me for rehashing some of the old arguments, but I'm going to express my right to pontificate as long as I want to.

                        Here's the situation at my school regarding school security:

                        I teach at a middle school in northern MD. We are considered to be an urban school, but are not technically "city." What we have are the poor who are rich enough to move out of the city and into, what they call, the country.


                        We have a lot of little systems in place, including a sizeable camera system. Last year, they installed around 10 - 15 cameras, which can be viewed on the internal computer network. There is also a camera outside which points at the front door. Furthermore, we have a school resource police officer who is dedicated soley to our school. In order for a visitor to be allowed to walk the school, they must stop by the office, have their picture taken with a web cam, and then a sticker visitor pass is printed with their picture on it.

                        Now, the reality.

                        The cameras often go down. Not to mention that they are entirely useless in the prevention of anything. Anyone bent on harming others and eventually self-elimination is not going to be hampered by these dumb cameras.

                        Personally, I teach outside in a trailer. there have been times when I've called for administrative aid, in one form or another, and had unbelievably long response times.

                        That dumb camera facing the front door? I really don't see the point. There are 2 sets of 2 doors at the main entrance. As soon as you open the door closest to the camera, you can't see anything. And it is possible to walk right up to these doors, unnoticed by this camera. Many people do it, without realizing. This camera goes to a CC TV in the main office (which is out of focus). I cannot see why this camera is on during the day, seeing as you can simply walk in the front door; it is not locked. After 4:00, the doors are locked and there is a buzzer system if you need to enter the building. I can see that the camera would be useful to see who is buzzing, but no one is there to answer the buzzer in the office after 4:00 anyway. The whole buzzer/camera system is only a front to give the appearance that someone is watching.

                        Let's say that someone storms the front of the building with guns blazing, and someone happens to be looking at the TV (which faces those entering the office, not the secretaries). What is supposed to happen? Are the secretaries (who are no more macho than my 57-year old mother) supposed to run out there and wrestle him to the ground? Currently, no one has thought that little gem through.

                        The resource office is pretty good and is a personal friend of mine. However, he has other duties outside of the school and is not always present. Furthermore, despite being a member of the SWAT team, he is going to do little by himself if a serios situation unfolds in the school. Not to mention, that if he (or others) are unpresent at the scene, it could take over an hour for the members of the team to present themselves orderly on-scene. The response to the Amish scene was incredible. It has been suggested that they already were on training in the area. Had the Amish teacher not left and called the police, she probably would have been shot and he probably would have had time to use the 2 tubes of KY jelly that he brought with him.

                        In a portable trailer, I often rely on the fact that most people would not take the time to kill everyone inside as well as venture outside and eliminate the portables as well. However, I have two metal doors that I cannot see out of that come into my room. I always leave one of them locked and I do not allow the students to open that door to anyone. However, on Tuesday (the very day after the shooting), my content area supervisor came by for an unexpected visit. He knocked on my locked door. I walked over and answered it. I saw him and began to say hello. As I was saying hello, he poked me in the stomach playfully with a ruler. I don't imagine he intended it as such, but I saw it as my own death. I lowered my guard because I recognized him.

                        Not to mention, after the second shooting of that week, my principal came out to visit and he asked that in response to the first two shootings, he was asking me and others in trailers to make sure we are outside in between class changes (which we always are anyway). This is our idea of heightened security.

                        We have over 30 entrances into our building not to mention any number of full-length windows. If someone wants in, they're getting in. The cameras will assist in prosecuting, but will alert no one that anything is going on because no one watches them real time. If they do not intend in leaving, there is nothing anyone outside the school is going to do.

                        On top of that, I cannot expect my colleagues to be able to wrestle down any attacker. In the case of the Amish teacher and aides, he was known to the Amish in the area and may have even come to that school before. He probably chose it purely for its low security (in addition to its source of young women) When he started flashing his weapons, I don't imagine that the women teachers would have even had an opportunity to fight back. In my mind, I see him being inside the school, being allowed in by his friendly nature. Those present tell us he began a mild dialogue about how he had a gun, then he brandished it. At that point, things went to heck in a handbasket. The surprise of such a weapon and the fear it must of instantly provoked in those women would have had the same response that I had when my supervisor stabbed me (a trained instructor in MA) with the ruler.

                        No dumb little classes and certification is going to save anyone. We cannot ask students (although its a great idea) to step in. Their young minds cannot handle the stress of a volitile situation such as this and we have no idea what they would do. And besides, what parent would allow their student to be trained for such a scenario?

                        Funds are also always a priority. There is money in my school's budget for security (note the cameras), but they are not going to pay for an armed guard(s) who, as Tree has already stated, may do more harm than good. It unfortunately not a priority, despite precedents in previous schools.

                        There are a few of us at the school who meet to train ourselves for the scenarios we can think of and train ourselves to be able to adapt to the scenarios for which we have not trained. However, when I say few, I mean 4. There are some teachers who are in their sixties. Some have physical dissabilities. There are those who have lost vision and have acquired back problems due to breaking up violent scenarios. There is fear from many of the teachers of a violent situation, because I don't care how many weekend scenarios they take, they just aren't prepared to take hand to hand combat lessons that they may need to use one day. Some can barely turn on a computer, let alone apply a wrist lock or stab a man.

                        Here's the bottom line:

                        1. If someone wants to do harm in a school setting, especially if they do not care what happens to them -- they will suceed.

                        2. School systems are operating under the hope that no one will try.

                        3. The 2 dominant thoughts (train the teachers, bring in hired guns) won't work.

                        4. At this point, we are wide open. We cannot lock ourselves down, as schools need to be a part of the community and present themselves as warm, inviting, institutions.

                        5. We need something else. This isn't working.

                        -Hikage

                        PS> Jubaji, I am floored[impressed] that you teach. Can I ask what subject and in which scenario?

                        Thanks again for making this thread interesting.

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                        • Originally posted by Hikage View Post

                          PS> Jubaji, I am floored[impressed] that you teach. Can I ask what subject and in which scenario? .


                          Shoot me a PM dude.

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                          • the gunman at the amish school was actually upest over woody harrelsons performance in kinkgpin. he had emotional problems, and seeing woody harrelson mock the amish culture in kingpin was the straw that broke the camels back.
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                            • Hikage,

                              Your school's response to security concerns is SO similar to my workplace's. More cameras which won't stop anything, better locks which we never use when we're open, and telling people to "pay attention to things that go on" and to contact senior staff if there's a problem (who are no more qualified to handle "a problem" than my friend's parrot and in fact often either escalate it and make it worse or dismiss things that are serious problems.) I've thought about this and decided if there is an incident, instead of going through protocol, I'm just going to call the cops right away if there's a problem. Then when my boss calls me in her office for not going through the established unqualified hierarchy, I can bring copies of the five zillion e-mails I've sent her and things I've written on my portion of performance evaluations and minutes from meetings where I requested better security, or at least training for people who are supposed to act as de facto security, and the response was to get more cameras. One guy who was in the building after we were closed actually turned his face away from the camera when he was leaving.

                              I guess what I was hoping to prevent is the "it's useless" attitude. Sure, anyone intent on harming others can get in, unless your school is set up like a prison cell. But anybody can get in my house, too, by breaking a window. I still lock my doors and assume they'd be more likely to go to the house with the open door right around the corner. I don't know... I guess it reminds me of conversations I have with a friend of mine. She won't carry a weapon, which means she'll have a distinct disadvantage in any kind of situation where she'd need to use one. Does this mean you just give up on her? Or do you teach her other skills that would work in other scenarios so she'll at least be MORE prepared even if she's not yet willing to step it up some?

                              Sadly the courses I want to organize are in the developmental stage, and the organizers recommended I set up a women's self-defense class for teachers in the meantime. There's no INTEREST in WSD with the people I talk to--they either already know it or want something more specific to their classroom. Also WSD would not cover school-specific awareness and prevention steps. I just think that the combo of prevention and awareness would take care of at least the majority of problems, though certainly not all of them. And some is better than none.

                              Jubaji, what's your school security like?

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                              • Originally posted by treelizard View Post

                                Jubaji, what's your school security like?

                                LOL! It's excellent! It consists of a wrestler, a large dog, and a sharp knife.



                                Oh, and a 90lbs. Japanese woman who can kill with a look.

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