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  • "Jingoism"

    Jingoism!
    Here follows a summary of explanations of the term;

    Jingoism, in American usage, a term for the blatant demand for an aggressive foreign policy. The word is probably derived from a music-hall song popularized in England during a crisis with Russia in 1877–1878:

    We don't want to fight, but, by jingo, if we do,
    We've got the ships, we've got the men and got the money too.


    By March 1878 "jingo" was a term of political reproach. In the United States it has been directed toward those who have advocated the annexation of Canada, the seizure of Mexico, expansion in the Caribbean or the Pacific, or a bellicose interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine.
    Jingoism is chauvinistic patriotism, usually associated with a War Hawk political stance. In practice, it refers to sections of the general public who advocate bullying other countries or using whatever means necessary (usually military force) to safeguard a country's national interests.

    During the 19th century in the United States, journalists called this attitude spread-eagleism. This patriotic belligerence was intensified by the sinking of the USS Maine in Havana harbor that led to the Spanish-American War. "Jingoism" did not enter the U.S. vernacular until near the turn of the 20th century.



    Jingoism (Appeal to Patriotism)




    Description:

    The argument attempts to persuade by calling on ones community spirit, specifically on ones love of country. Alternatively, the argument may attempt to refute a position by calling it treasonous or unpatriotic.



    Examples:


    "The war in Iraq is clearly justified. Support our troops!"


    "Questioning the president's tax cut is tantamount to treason."



    Discussion:


    The English lexicographer Samuel Johnson once remarked, "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels." Indeed, appeals to patriotic pride were used during the 20th century to legitimize some of the most unspeakable crimes in human history. Flag waving and the use of other symbols of national pride in place of reasoning is an old tradition in America as well, and we should not imagine that we are immune to the evil that the appeal to such strong emotions can cause.


    Patriotic pride is a powerful and ennobling emotion. Like any emotion rooted fundamentally in love, it takes us outside of ourselves. When moved by such emotions we transcend our narrow personal interests and become part of something large and meaningful. We realize that there are some things worth dying for. What things? Well, perhaps different patriots are moved by different ideals, but modern democracies have in common this ideal (from John Locke), that the legitimate basis of government resides in the consent of the governed. That idea, replacing the old notion of the divine right of kings, is one that American patriots died for in 1776. French patriots died for it a few years later, and around the world that idea has toppled dictators and broken the chains of injustice. No ideal has more profoundly shaped the course of history and made the world a better place to live. When an idea is that important, there is no illogic in asking for some sacrifice - even the ultimate sacrifice - on its behalf. Ideas matter, and the ideas that define our civic identity matter more than most.
    But, of course, this creates an opportunity for bad reasoning. An argument commits the fallacy of Jingoism when it makes reference to the noble ideals that define our civic identity, but does so only symbolically, making no real connection between the ideals and the actual actions or opinions defended by appeal to them. For example, the so-called "Patriot Act" is named specifically to evoke feelings of patriotism, which for most Americans is associated with such ideals as "freedom" and "equal protection under the law," yet the content of the act actually increases the power of law enforcement agents to spy on citizens without their knowledge or consent and to engage in discriminatory practices in the treatment of suspects. Some such strengthening of the powers of law enforcement agents may be justified - a debate that must be conducted elsewhere - but should more properly be called the Investigative Powers Act in any case. The disconnect between the name of the law and its actual content is darkly ironic, but it perfectly illustrates the lack of relevant connection that distinguishes genuine patriotic appeals (calling for sacrifice on behalf of noble ideals) from mere jingoism.






    Classification: A Fallacy of Irrelevance (a deductive fallacy of soundness with a falsehood in the major premiss) in the Emotional Appeals family.

    Source: The term "jingoism" dates from 1878. It was first used to describe the excessive (and misguided) patriotism of British politicians who wanted Britain to enter the Russo-Turkish war (on the side of the Turks). The word comes from a popular song of the time, written by G. H. MacDermott, which included the following chorus:
    We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do...
    We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!

    This was not, of course, the first time, or the last time, that appeals to patriotic fervor have been used to promote an ill-advised entry into an unnecessary war.
    The song;

    The "Dogs of War" are loose and the rugged Russian Bear,
    All bent on blood and robbery has crawled out of his lair...
    It seems a thrashing now and then, will never help to tame...
    That brute, and so he's out upon the "same old game"...
    The Lion did his best... to find him some excuse...
    To crawl back to his den again. All efforts were no use...
    He hunger'd for his victim. He's pleased when blood is shed...
    But let us hope his crimes may all recoil on his own head...

    Chorus:
    We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do...
    We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!
    We've fought the Bear before... and while we're Britons true,
    The Russians shall not have Constantinople...

    The misdeeds of the Turks have been "spouted" through all lands,
    But how about the Russians, can they show spotless hands?
    They slaughtered well at Khiva, in Siberia icy cold.
    How many subjects done to death we'll ne'er perhaps be told.
    They butchered the Circassians, man, woman yes and child.
    With cruelties their Generals their murderous hours beguiled,
    And poor unhappy Poland their cruel yoke must bear,
    While prayers for "Freedom and Revenge" go up into the air.

    (Chorus)

    May he who 'gan the quarrel soon have to bite the dust.
    The Turk should be thrice armed for "he hath his quarrel just."
    'Tis said that countless thousands should die through cruel war,
    But let us hope most fervently ere long it shall be o'er.
    Let them be warned: Old England is brave Old England still.
    We've proved our might, we've claimed our right, and ever, ever will.
    Should we have to draw the sword our way to victory we'll forge,
    With the Battle cry of Britons, "Old England and St George!"

    (chorus)
    Can you love your country just a little too much?
    Last edited by Troll Virus; 04-16-2007, 08:28 AM.

  • #2
    Not when you're a member of it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
      Or close the wall up with our English dead.
      In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
      As modest stillness and humility:
      But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
      Then imitate the action of the tiger;
      Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
      Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
      Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
      Let pry through the portage of the head
      Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
      As fearfully as doth a galled rock
      O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
      Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
      Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
      Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
      To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
      Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
      Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
      Have in these parts from morn till even fought
      And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
      Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
      That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
      Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
      And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
      Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
      The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
      That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
      For there is none of you so mean and base,
      That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
      I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
      Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
      Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
      Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

      Comment


      • #4
        Good old Shakespeare.

        Comment


        • #5
          Jerusalem
          Poem lyrics of Jerusalem by William Blake.


          And did those feet in ancient time
          Walk upon England's mountains green?
          And was the holy Lamb of God
          On England's pleasant pastures seen?

          And did the Countenance Divine
          Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
          And was Jerusalem builded here,
          Among these dark Satanic mills?

          Bring me my bow of burning gold:
          Bring me my arrows of desire:
          Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
          Bring me my chariot of fire.

          I will not cease from mental fight,
          Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
          Till we have built Jerusalem
          In England's green and pleasant land.
          To add spice to the quote;
          It was put forward that 'Jesus' did visit the UK (specifically England) historically, hence the "feet, in ancient time", along with the question mark.
          Last edited by Troll Virus; 05-16-2007, 07:12 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mike Brewer
            I suppose you can love it too much for a foreigner's palate, but I think a person who lives in a Nation that provides him/her with basic needs, social opportunities, economic advantages, and the liberty to basically be who and what the person chooses should love that country. I think not to love it is a sign of moral defect.
            Surely that's a matter of perspective?
            Would an Iraqui not use that as a defence or offence in debate?
            What does being 'foreign' have to do with it?





            To me, patriotism is the recognition that the world is larger than you are,
            Nonsense.
            Patriotism is being loyal to your nation, end of story!



            and that many, many people before you sacrificed and died for what you now take for granted.
            Evolution of mankind does not stop at some historical boundary marking that suits the agenda of a particular debate.
            Millions of people died merely setting up what you refer to as a sacrifice.


            I think the love of one's country is similar to the love of one's God in that it is the choice to recognize that we all come from something, from somewhere, and to that something or somewhere, we owe a debt.
            I can respect that that is your belief.
            I do not believe the same.
            Can you respect that?
            Is it ok by you that others have different beliefs?
            Can you respect them?

            To me (speaking only for me), 'God' and 'Country' are artificial constructs!
            To me, what is more important, is how we conduct ourselves ,both in the world and in personal life, based on a set of moral guidelines I've developed independant of someone else's doctrine.

            The truest test, for me, would be to take people who feel it is wrong to show pride and wave one's flag and love one's home above all other places, and see how many of them live on the very systems they criticize.
            That sentence just doesn't make any point.


            If a man is willing to make it truly all on his own, with no help from his nation or his government, then maybe he has a right to bitch, but if he's driving down the roads his fellow citizens paid for, learning in the schools their taxes helped to build and staff, eating the food that his fellow citizens grew or paid to import, clothing his body with the products of his nation's industry, then I think perhaps his offense at "jingoism" is likely more an outburst of self-importance than anything else.
            That's pretty 'back to front'!
            If a man pays his taxes, then surely, in any democracy, he's entitled to his own opinion and not just the one imposed upon him?
            That's the whole purpose of democracy right?
            Regarding 'Jingoism'.
            Surely there is no harm in pointing out that many people, including the poster questioned are/maybe being led by the nose-ring to the slaughterhouse willingly?



            I also think that there is a distinct and very real difference between national pride (the love of one's country) and the protection of one's own national sovreignty that goes along with it, and the type of "advocacy of aggressive foreign policy" that Troll Virus is talking about.
            I'm not sure that you know what I was talking about.

            While he hasn't been guilty of it in this thread, he has certainly fallen back on Jingoism as a crutch anytime someone speaks highly of his or her country.
            Guilt?
            Innocense?
            I've been guilty of Jingoism?
            Elucidate please.





            It's the same intellectually retarded kind of thing people do when they immediately accuse someone who is against illegal immigration of being a racist. It's a cop out, and attempt to attack a person instead of discuss an issue.
            Mike.
            This thread is about 'Jingoism'
            I'll not 'like you' accuse anyone of being retarded or racist.
            I would, as a member of defend.net's staff ask that you try to remain 'on topic'.

            Comment


            • #7
              eh...

              It's a long way to Tipperary,
              It's a long way to go.
              It's a long way to Tipperary
              To the sweetest girl I know!
              Goodbye Piccadilly,
              Farewell Leicester Square!
              It's a long long way to Tipperary,
              But my heart's right there.

              Up to mighty London
              Came an Irishman one day
              As the streets are paved with gold
              Sure, everyone was gay
              Singing songs of Piccadilly,
              Strand and Leicester Square
              Till Paddy got excited
              And he shouted to them there...
              It's a long way to Tipperary...
              Paddy wrote a letter
              To his Irish Molly-O,
              Saying, "Should you not receive it
              Write and let me know!"
              "If I make mistakes in spelling,
              Molly dear," said he,
              "Remember, it's the pen that's bad,
              Don't lay the blame on me!"
              It's a long way to Tipperary...
              Molly wrote a neat reply
              To Irish Paddy-O
              Saying Mike Maloney
              Wants to marry me and so
              Leave the Strand and Picadilly
              Or you'll be to blame
              For love has fairly drove me silly:
              Hoping you're the same!
              It's a long way to Tipperary...
              An alternative concluding chorus, bawdy by contemporary standards:
              That's the wrong way to tickle Mary
              That's the wrong way to kiss
              Don't you know that over here lad
              They like it best like this
              Hooray pour la francais
              Farewell Angleterre
              We didn't know how to tickle Mary
              But we learnt how over there

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mike Brewer
                It's spelled Iraqi.
                Thank you.
                Note the adjacency of the 'u' and 'i' keys on your keyboard.

                Yes, I'm sure everyone else would use it if they felt it was a defensible position to take. Does that make it wrong?
                Like I said, surely that's amatter of perspective?.



                Thank you Mr. Webster. To me, patriotism is the recognition that I owe much of who and what I am to my nation and the things it has given me. It is the recognition of a debt, and the pride and honor I feel in repaying that debt. If it's not the same for you, so be it. I never said it had to be.
                I'm not sure which planet that came from, but as always, I can respect that others may have different beliefs to my own, however misplaced.



                Of course I can accept it, Troll. never have I said that my patriotism somehow implies that others are worse.
                Ok, you admit being patriotic?
                I'd never have guessed.
                Why do you respond to me, now abbreviating my username to "Troll"?
                That would to some imply that I am worse?
                You know may name, you know my username.
                Does it somehow support your response to somehow attempt to demean me?


                I have only said "My nation is great!" That plainly allows for the idea that all others might be great as well, and it in no way inhibits anyone else from feeling or thinking any way they want.
                Yet you often support the idea that 'your' nation is greater than others on this board on a regular basis.
                I can provide many links to that if you protest.



                One might ask, however, if the author of this thread (who was that again?) is capable of allowing for others' differing beliefs
                That's a pretty foolish question.
                I (thread started by me in case anyone can't follow), am all for differing beliefs.
                That's what makes discussion interesting.
                What I won't do, is accept someone elses belief becaus I am forced to.
                I saught to address the issue of 'excessive patriotism' without victimising anyone.
                I mentioned no names, but it's clear that, after what was supposed to be a Ten day Ban (which dragged out longer) and my subsequent correspondence with "defend.net", there is now, clearly an issue with myself and Mike.
                So go on Mike, ban me!
                I've really dissed you on here haven't I?
                I've abused you at every turn.
                I've never supported your statements.
                I've never tried to help you in strife with members or Trolls.


                After all, the whole point of the thread seems to be the exception you have taken with people who are outspoken patriots!
                That's utter bollocks and you know it.
                Anyone can read this thread and there's zero 'steering' of opinion.
                There's a series of quotes and links and that's all.
                If you see yourself as excessively patriotic, then that's hardly my doing, now is it?



                If one is being totally honest about it, this entire conversation is based on how "fed up" you were with people like me talking about how much we love our country.
                That's lame Mike.
                Like I said before, I thought better of you than that.
                This thread is not a conversation.
                It's a topic.
                If you can't handle the subject material, then you really need to go away and get in touch with yourself, as this clearly addresses issues you have not yet personally assimilated.
                The 'Topic' is not about how much you love your country, but about how easily you are manipulated into 'banging it's Gong'.

                Seems to me that's intolerance of people who hold differing beliefs, Troll.
                Again, you refer to me as "Troll", when you know full well my name and intention.
                You attack me, in assumption that you will receive support and absolution on this board.
                The person I thought you were would not do this.
                Once more, you dissapoint me, but more importantly, you let yourself down.



                Put more simply, many critics take for granted that their right to criticize is protected by the very systems and governments they place in their crosshairs. One might talk about how their government does nothing to take care of its citizens, for example. That same person might then get out of bed in a home they own. They might then take a shower in a tub with running water, cleaned and provided directly to their home via pipes and purifying plants funded with tax dollars. The critic might then wander downstairs and eat a nice breakfast, cooked over gas provided by similar pipelines. As they eat the food that was shipped to their local market on tax funded roads, certified healthy by government agencies tasked with making sure food meets strict health standards, and enjoy their morning paper by the light of a powered bulb overhead (where does the electricity come from?), they read a story about how the government isn't doing enough to care for its citizens. It reinforces the critics point of view, and he becomes something of an "Anti-Jingoist." He gets in his car, which runs on gasoline or diesel that the government subsidized and shipped in via more pipelines and roads and ports. As he works himself into an anti-government frenzy, he drives along those same tax-funded roads. He stays in his lane, though, because his government has a department for painting lines on the roads, and he knows where to turn because his government has standardized and placed road signs along his route. He avoids accidents because several government agencies have provided him with traffic lights, and he arrives at his middle class job. Inside a climate controlled building, he stops at the water fountain for another drink of clean, fresh water. When he takes a dump, he can flush it away with nary a second thought, and it will be treated, cleaned, and returned to him for use at his discretion, all without any effort at all on his part.
                KNOCK! KNOCK!
                Hello?
                Anyone home?
                Listen, I'm real glad you're happy!

                It's a shame this critic lives under a government that does nothing for him.
                I'm a bit lost by that statement.
                Which "critic"/"Government" do you refer to and why?



                My post was not a diversion of the topic, but a comparison of one ignorant argument to another.
                It's 'arguement.

                As for staying on topic, I've got an interesting idea. Let's compare the idea of being openly and proudly patriotic with the idea of being openly and proudly anti-patriot. I see some pretty worthwhile parallels! You make it a habit to criticize "jingoists."
                Let me give you another idea Mike.
                You say I make it a habit to criticize "jingoists"?
                Can you make a case for the offense based on that, or does it just happen to be the rancid bit between your teeth right now?


                Yet at the same time, you feel completely justified - even open-minded! - when you put them down for their beliefs. You've made statements like "I'm fed up with jingoism" and "If it's so great, why talk about it?"
                You are raving like a madman there, inventing phrases to suit your own agenda.
                I said, quite clearly, that I had no problem with people feeling a sense of national pride.
                I also said, quite clearly, that it became a problem when supra-patriotism was extended to others.



                And still, you feel completely okay with accusing others of being intolerant? How do you suppose that is? You have compared people who love their country to the unenlightened.
                Well here's a challenge for you;
                Find a quote by me that seems to support what you said there and quote it with it's original context.
                What this boils down to, is you wanting to ban me and not finding any justification to do so, simply because I don't agree with you.
                I don't agree with you because you are unwilling to accept anything that does not conform with your own, myopic perspective of the world.


                You did this by implication when you suggested that while their values and ideals are based on artificial things, your own are based on moral guidelines you have developed independently (as opposed to independantly...you know I'm only doing this because you decided to blast me for not spelling like a Brit, right?) of other people's doctrine. I would submit to you that your own thinking is not nearly so independent as you'd like to believe. In fact, I can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that your own thinking places you in a huge group of people who do exactly the same things you do, preach the same "independence" despitetheir massive in-group thinking, and are every bit as guilty of pushing their own ideas above others as the so-called jingoists you criticize.
                YADA YADA YADA.
                Somehow making you judge and jury over someone you have never met?
                Yeah, I'm no spring chicken.
                I've got my own ideas about things.
                If you want to join a group of people who think the same as you then welcome to the 'no-contest' party.

                What do our readers think? Is this brand of TrollVirus Anti-Jingoism roughly the same thing as the Jingoism he seems so hellbent on criticizing? What's the difference between rabidly defending your ideals as a nation and rabidly defending your ideals as a so-called "independent thinker?"

                Discuss...
                That's probably the biggest pile of manure ever attempted on here and by someone entrusted as a staff member.

                What do our readers think?
                I wonder?
                I wonder if they don't wonder if the columnists and staff of this forum aren't a bit strange or perhaps a bit driven/manipulative.

                Mike, you should'nt assume people on here are stupid, or so easlily led.
                You might think you post from a decensible position, but history may prove you a fool.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Garland View Post
                  eh...

                  It's a long way to Tipperary,
                  It's a long way to go.
                  It's a long way to Tipperary
                  To the sweetest girl I know!
                  Goodbye Piccadilly,
                  Farewell Leicester Square!
                  It's a long long way to Tipperary,
                  But my heart's right there.

                  Up to mighty London
                  Came an Irishman one day
                  As the streets are paved with gold
                  Sure, everyone was gay
                  Singing songs of Piccadilly,
                  Strand and Leicester Square
                  Till Paddy got excited
                  And he shouted to them there...
                  It's a long way to Tipperary...
                  Paddy wrote a letter
                  To his Irish Molly-O,
                  Saying, "Should you not receive it
                  Write and let me know!"
                  "If I make mistakes in spelling,
                  Molly dear," said he,
                  "Remember, it's the pen that's bad,
                  Don't lay the blame on me!"
                  It's a long way to Tipperary...
                  Molly wrote a neat reply
                  To Irish Paddy-O
                  Saying Mike Maloney
                  Wants to marry me and so
                  Leave the Strand and Picadilly
                  Or you'll be to blame
                  For love has fairly drove me silly:
                  Hoping you're the same!
                  It's a long way to Tipperary...
                  An alternative concluding chorus, bawdy by contemporary standards:
                  That's the wrong way to tickle Mary
                  That's the wrong way to kiss
                  Don't you know that over here lad
                  They like it best like this
                  Hooray pour la francais
                  Farewell Angleterre
                  We didn't know how to tickle Mary
                  But we learnt how over there
                  LOL, you found the 18+ rated version of the song.
                  Yeah, thousands, if not millions, died for this song.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    hello,

                    wow. seems a "spirited" topic. wondering what brought this on? that is, from the phrasing of the original post on this thread, it gives the impression that this began elsewhere. just wondering.

                    big subject. really big.

                    thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Troll Virus View Post
                      LOL, you found the 18+ rated version of the song.
                      Yeah, thousands, if not millions, died for this song.
                      ...and I think I just about died from alcohol poisoning the first time I heard it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Troll Virus View Post
                        What do our readers think?
                        I wonder?
                        [YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=_AtRv3HawMo&mode=related&search[/YOUTUBE]
                        I think arguing makes everyone look retarded.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mike Brewer
                          Put more simply, many critics take for granted that their right to criticize is protected by the very systems and governments they place in their crosshairs. One might talk about how their government does nothing to take care of its citizens, for example. That same person might then get out of bed in a home they own. They might then take a shower in a tub with running water, cleaned and provided directly to their home via pipes and purifying plants funded with tax dollars. The critic might then wander downstairs and eat a nice breakfast, cooked over gas provided by similar pipelines. As they eat the food that was shipped to their local market on tax funded roads, certified healthy by government agencies tasked with making sure food meets strict health standards, and enjoy their morning paper by the light of a powered bulb overhead (where does the electricity come from?), they read a story about how the government isn't doing enough to care for its citizens. It reinforces the critics point of view, and he becomes something of an "Anti-Jingoist." He gets in his car, which runs on gasoline or diesel that the government subsidized and shipped in via more pipelines and roads and ports. As he works himself into an anti-government frenzy, he drives along those same tax-funded roads. He stays in his lane, though, because his government has a department for painting lines on the roads, and he knows where to turn because his government has standardized and placed road signs along his route. He avoids accidents because several government agencies have provided him with traffic lights, and he arrives at his middle class job. Inside a climate controlled building, he stops at the water fountain for another drink of clean, fresh water. When he takes a dump, he can flush it away with nary a second thought, and it will be treated, cleaned, and returned to him for use at his discretion, all without any effort at all on his part.

                          It's a shame this critic lives under a government that does nothing for him.

                          Discuss...
                          Awesome.

                          I was thinking the exact same thing the other day, especially the part about how we, as a society, take government and its services for granted and how miserable our lives would be without it.

                          The reason why people can go on, buy nice things and live the high life is because cess pools of our own waste aren't gathering in our back yards, causing dissentary and all kinds of ugly sh!t that people don't have to think about.

                          Amen!
                          Last edited by Tom Yum; 05-20-2007, 02:32 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            These are some really great posts!!! Mike, you did an excellent job of steering the thread well away from the original topic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by medic06 View Post
                              These are some really great posts!!! Mike, you did an excellent job of steering the thread well away from the original topic.
                              LOL! I don't know if that's laced with sarcasm or what. Eh...I agree with both TV (the std) and Mike. Now lets put the link that gregi posted back up and everyone'll be happy.

                              Comment

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