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  • American Decency

    I got this post of another forum I watch. That thread fell into a political argument within six posts. I was wondering, if I put this here, how many posts we can go without negativity.


    "This post is for my Americans pals. You guys have had a rough ride lately. If you have time, please read this commentary which was written by a well-respected Washington news correspondent from outside of your country. Some outsiders are paying attention.


    NEIL MACDONALD:
    On American decency
    April 16, 2007

    There is a man I know here in suburban Washington who is a conservative, which in this country means truly conservative. He is from Wisconsin and attends his church on Sunday and wears his Middle American values like badges on a sash.

    He has also benefited richly from the advantages the U.S. offers its well-to-do, and votes Republican.

    Nowadays, like many Americans, he regards the war in Iraq as a debacle. But he still argues with his Maryland neighbours against withdrawing American troops precipitously from Iraq, which most Democrats now assume is what the country wants.

    If we leave, he says, so many people will die. It's our mess, and our responsibility. He recognizes that American soldiers are dying, but if hundreds of Americans have to die to save hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, well, that's what we have to do, he says, even if Americans aren't welcome there.

    In other words, in his view, doing the right thing ought to trump narrowly defined national interest.

    Now, it is true that this man bought George W. Bush's case for war four years ago. But now that it's gone bad, he truly does worry about doing the right thing.

    Deep down, a great many Americans feel the same way. It can be seen in the polls, although perhaps the sentiment is not phrased as bluntly as my acquaintance puts it.

    And whether the rest of the world cares to recognize it or not, Americans often want to do the right thing.

    There was no enriching U.S. national interest in leading NATO into Kosovo, against the will of the UN, to save the Muslim minority there from the clutches of Slobodan Milosevic. But the Americans did it anyway.

    There was nothing really to be gained by sending troops to Somalia in the 1990s to stop the horrors there. Quite the opposite, in fact. But the U.S. did that, too.

    One suspects public opinion here would have pushed troops into Sudan's troubled Darfur region by now, if Iraq was not going so badly.

    To be sure, Washington is capable of the same cynical hypocrisy all nations practise to enrich themselves or protect their interests. But it's hard to imagine another country expending so much blood and treasure attempting to do the right thing, even once in awhile.

    Here's another impressive thing Americans do: They give to charity. They hand over their cash to help people, pure and simple, and they do it on a scale that shames the rest of the world.

    The philanthropy centre at Indiana University reports that, in 2005, American individuals and corporations gave away $260.2 billion, or 2.2 per cent of average household income. That's a significant amount of money, and an increase of six per cent over the previous year.

    A breakdown of the figure shows people here gave even more after disasters like Hurricane Katrina or the Asian tsunami.

    Why so generous? Certainly the ability to give is part of it. Americans are wealthy. But even in percentage terms, they give away much, much more than people in other rich societies.

    The World Bank rated 12 countries for charitable giving in 2005 and found that American individuals gave away 1.7 per cent of the nation's entire economic output, which was more than twice as much as any other nation. Britain and Canada were a distant second at about .73 per cent of GDP. Down at the bottom of the list were the Turks, Germans and French.
    Welcome to the neighbourhood

    Now, part of that generosity may flow from American religiosity, and the religious duty to give.

    By some measures, this is the most religious country in the world, something many people tend to sneer at, especially when the so-called religious right appears to have so much influence over social and foreign policy. And I must admit, I've suppressed shivers of discomfort when American evangelicals have taken my hands and announced that Jesus loves me and they do, too.

    But these believers are often also people with a broad streak of civic decency, the sort who get deeply involved in their children's schools (something else Americans excel at), and show up at your door to welcome you to the neighbourhood.

    I have lived in several Canadian cities, and overseas, and never have I experienced the sheer openness and sense of community that neighbours here extend to one another.

    Americans also work hard. Lucien Bouchard, the former premier of Quebec, was derided in his own province recently for saying it, but Americans work much harder than we Canadians do.

    Repeated studies have found that not only do Americans take far fewer annual vacation days (12, as compared to the Canadian average of 20, or the Germans at 27 and the French at 39), they are also the most likely to work more than 40 hours a week.

    Americans actually give back millions of vacation days a year.

    It's quite the work ethic. Again, you can sneer at it, and many of my European friends do, but the fact is that the America's devotion to hard work is an economic tide that lifts all the world's boats. Besides, why would you criticize a people for rolling up their sleeves and making a better life for themselves?

    Though I've never been shy to criticize, I have to say the list of things I admire about Americans has grown since I arrived here four years ago.

    They volunteer in greater numbers than any other nationality. Community service is fast becoming a secondary school requisite. And they have created a society where the consumer is king. If you've ever shopped in an American wine store after years of submitting to the faceless government monopolies in Canada, you know that is often a good thing.

    This is probably the first country in human history where a homeless person has gone to court against big government and won.

    Now, you can argue (and a great many do) that Americans are overly sure of their righteousness and certainly capable of trivializing, if not trampling on, the happiness of others in the headlong pursuit of their own. American society can be more Darwinian than most. But there is certainly a collective decency here.

    As China and India rise, and Russia wields its extraordinary resources, one gets the feeling we may be watching the decline of the American empire. Many will cheer that. I find myself wondering whether the next dominant power will feel anything like the same desire to do the right thing."

  • #2
    It's a bit too all over the place to really respond to in depth right now (i've got class in a couple minutes) but for now i'll say that I do love America, or more accurately, I love the potential that America represents. I can't stand that portion of the far left who literally hate America, but I also don't like this common reaction to that hate of conservatives gathering their friends around for a circle jerk of "everything's alright, America's perfect!" Not to accuse this Neil MacDonald fellow of this, i can appreciate why some might feel the need to pat America on the back from time to time given the current climate, as long as we return to regarding the big picture.

    You can love America and still think it's seriously f*cked up, i'm living proof

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mike Brewer
      Thank you Gregi. Hey Troll Virus!! Get in here and read this!!
      I read it when it was first posted Mike.
      You want my comment on the article?

      It's extremely defensive.
      All the justifications are written as if no other country "gives to charity" or takes action when there is no clear financial benefit.
      The "America is the most religious country" bit made me laugh out loud.
      Just more 'jingoism'

      "let us swear
      That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
      For there is none of you so mean and base,
      That hath not noble lustre in your eyes."
      You asked.
      That's what I see.
      Last edited by Troll Virus; 04-20-2007, 05:21 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by gregimotis View Post
        Here's another impressive thing Americans do: They give to charity. They hand over their cash to help people, pure and simple, and they do it on a scale that shames the rest of the world.

        The philanthropy centre at Indiana University reports that, in 2005, American individuals and corporations gave away $260.2 billion, or 2.2 per cent of average household income. That's a significant amount of money, and an increase of six per cent over the previous year.

        A breakdown of the figure shows people here gave even more after disasters like Hurricane Katrina or the Asian tsunami.

        Why so generous? Certainly the ability to give is part of it. Americans are wealthy. But even in percentage terms, they give away much, much more than people in other rich societies.
        Sorry to burst the bubble but if you compare what countries give to charity as percentage of the
        GNP than the US it the one being shamed, countries with 1/20 of the people give 1/5 of what the US gives, which means per houshold they give 4x as much as people in the US
        However( before I'm being roasted) when it comes to community sense there aren't many countries topping the people in the US ( based on series like Extreme House makeover)
        When it comes to people from their community, people are giving a lot, not just money

        As an Atheist I'm against religion but when I see this I can't help but being touched, it is about the only thing I like about religion
        Help people if and in the way you can and do not judge them

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mike Brewer
          It doesn't say that no one else gives to charity; only that we give more.
          I think we've had this conversation before.
          Do you believe that the average American citizen is more charitable in temperament than the average citizen of every other country in the world?

          And while I agree that the notion of America being the most religious country is laughable (is that actually what the article said?), it's a lot more religious than most foreigners think.
          Iraq would be a pretty religious country too, yes?

          I believe so many people in other countries have such a twisted view of America because of two main reasons. First, many of you have never spent any real time here and so develop your impressions of America from CNN and the television.
          The reverse is also true Mike.
          Me, I'm pretty well travelled, having spent time in Dubai, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, South Africa, Greece and indeed the US of A.
          I wouldn't say I had a twisted view of America, but I did find a great many Americans who didn't even know where my country was (when I mentioned Mel Gibsons 'Braveheart' they got it).

          Second, many of you (Troll Virus?) get pretty defensive yourselves when someone talks up America.
          Defensive, no.
          Offensive, no.
          Fed up, yeah.
          Not just America as a topic though.
          I'm against anything that smacks of evangelism.
          If America is so great though, why talk it up?


          I've noticed a trend with several people that when someone points out a positive about America, they're quick to criticise it as if it's bragging or egotistical. Some people, and to some degree I'm including you in this, TV, seem to have a very tough time allowing Americans to be proud of being Americans.
          Nah nah nah.
          I'm not letting you away with that Mike.
          All I've ever done is point out a different way of looking at things, from the perspective of someone outside America.



          Never mind the fact that we are wrapped up in a battle with ourselves for our own national identity right now, the "in thing" for foreigners seems to be to point and laugh at the Americans on almost any issue. Germany is notorious for it, and many of their politicians have based entire campaigns on the behavior. It doesn't matter if any of what's being said is true; things are handpicked and highlighted and mocked all the same.
          a Kleenex moment

          The simple fact is, we are a young country. And in that short timeframe, we have accomplished a great deal. We've accomplished a great deal economically, militarily, and governmentally. Our whole nation is a grand experiment in the process, and it's natural to have to shake out some bugs now and then. We're still developing, and all in all, we're doing pretty well. We're still a nation of dreams-come-true for many, many millions of people, and we still represent dreams to be had for millions and millions more.
          It's a matter of asking the right questions.
          There are a lot of things I like about America.

          I've been to quite a few other countries, so I'm not one of those people that's sniping at other nations from the comfort of an armchair when I say that it's America that represents the best parts of almost everywhere else I've been.
          That's a very personal statement.
          I don't personally agree with you there.

          It's easy (sometimes painfully easy) to point out the embarrassing episodes in other nations' histories, especially with as much to pick from as Great Britain. But in most cases, we try not to do that.
          I think you should.
          What is the point of history, if one nation can't learn from the mistakes of another?


          So while you complain of jingoism and ego, please ask yourself why it's worse for us to toot our own horn than for others to aim their negativity at us.
          'Why', because one creates the other.
          If you stop going on about how great you are, then others will be less inclined to point out how great you are not.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mike Brewer
            Accept it as a difference in cultures, then. When we go to nice restaurants, we like to talk about them. When we see a great movie, we tell our friends. And to an American, living in a great country is often a source of pride and happiness as well.
            I don't see our cultures as being so different based on that.





            So you don't need to "let me off" with that. I wasn't asking your permission nor seeking your approval for being proud of the country in which I live, or for being vocal about it.
            Nor should you, nor was it suggested!


            More, I wouldn't take your advice about "I should talk bad about others" either. I believe that seeing the good in others is far better than harping on the bad. You don't have to feel the same way (and clearly you don't), but I do.
            Hold on there 'Bald Eagle'.
            You're trying to put words into my mouth there.
            Quote specific comments or STFU.


            You may not feel a need to talk up your own country, but it's clear you prefer it over all the others you've been to.
            I have mentioned the contributions I see my country to have made to the world on this forum at least once before.
            I don't in fact prefer my own country on a number of levels.
            I've considered leaving it many times.
            I love the people and love the scenery.
            Love the history too.
            I'm in no dillemna in understanding how it ranks in the great scheme of things however.


            That's good! That's a patriot's defining characteristic, and it's admirable in my opinion. Good on you! But to tell Americans that we need to stop talking up our home? Well forgive me, but that's fully retarded!
            Retarded?
            That's an insult unbecoming you Mike.
            Someone throws up a view you don't support and all of a sudden they're "retarded"?


            I love it here. Every day I wake up, and each night before I go to sleep, I thank God for putting me here in this country where I have the freedom to go and enjoy anywhere else I want to go, and where I can live pretty much any way I damned well please.
            Oh for chrissakes get over yourself man.


            I am proud to be the inheritor of a nation that was built on the defiance of tyranny (much as your own country was, though our execution was somewhat more prosperous in the end), and the ideals of freedom and individuality. I am honored at the privelage of putting on a uniform in service of my country and partaking in some small measure of the long line of honor that has defended this home of mine against everyone from King George right on up to Osama bin Laden.
            Mike.
            That kind of post puts you in a place you shouldn't be IMO.
            I've admired many of your posts, but the lack of logic and sheer Godly 'awe', present in that last makes me sick.

            In short, you don't have to like it that we are a proud people.
            I'm well aware of the pride.
            I've no dislike for it.
            America is by no means alone in having it's residents be proud of it.


            Scots have been accused of that a time or two as well. We are a vocal people, for better or worse. My advice is, suck it up! When Scotland is a superpower, you can tell us how we should all act. And even then, don't expect many of us to listen.
            That's actually the weakest thing I think I've ever seen you post on here.
            What "the ****" do you know about Scotland?
            Congratulations on being a "superpower".
            Mike, you have a long road ahead, in redeeming yourself to me after that last post.


            That was fucking pathetic and I thought better of you than that.

            So dissapointed I could spit.
            Last edited by Troll Virus; 04-20-2007, 08:31 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ahhh good old Andy Murray...I mean Troll Virus.

              Comment


              • #8
                Brewer for President.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mike Brewer
                  People here often disagree without becoming so disgusted they could spit....
                  If he agreed, by that logic, would he swallow?
                  Last edited by Tom Yum; 04-21-2007, 01:14 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok, I did start a lengthy 'blow by blow' riposte to all of this, then my epos disrupted my DSL line when I hit send and I lost it all.
                    In retrospect, it wouldn't have been productive and would have led to a 'you said/he' said fracas.

                    Mike asked me to comment on the article, which I did.
                    I've made my thoughts on the article clear.
                    If any American takes those comments overly personally and is offended, then I apologise, as that was not my intention.

                    Next time someone asks for my opinion, I'll be sure to remind them to "be careful what you wish for."

                    Thank you for the display of "American Decency."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, that didn't go quite as I expected it too. I was thinking it would bait the Americans into an argument more than anyone else and I expected it to be a little less civil than it was - so maybe my premise is wrong.



                      It seems to me that Americans (since 9/11 at least, but I think even before that) have a hard time looking at their country with any sort of objective view. Some fall into a 'my country right or wrong' attitude but even more - many more it seems to me - take the opposite stance. For instance, not only are there a few people in this country who really believe our own government faked 9/11, but more importantly, there are many people who are willing to consider the idea. To discuss it like it could be true and ask about the evidence.


                      In the eighties when the the African famines were all the news, the national self-hate ran this way "How can we be the richest nation in the world and allow this to happen? Ours is truly a corrupt and vicious country". Later, national health care was the cause of the day and the same argument ran "So many people have so much wealth, and we can't even see a way to help the poor access a doctor." Nowadays, the occupations take up much of our talk, but the talk is the same. Always an undercurrent of outraged self-contempt.

                      My point here is not to make a case for or against the national decisions, but rather to point out the inflexibility, the hardness of opinion. It's as if many people in the States were reading their opinions from a script and the script goes this way - Fear, Outrage, Indignation, Shame. Also Nationalism, Violence, and Rage.

                      I have a feeling that it isn't like this everywhere in the world. I don't know what's happened around here that all our debates have to be 'no quarter'. Everything is a shouting match and everyone with a different opinion must be a moron.

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