german soldiers in afghanistan posing with trophies

[DickHardman]

bad times.....

[Thai Bri]

Dick gets all moralistic about a soldier posing with the remains of a dead person, yet he uses a picture of an alive mentally ill person in his signature?

[aseepish]

Fortunately he didn't post ALL the photos...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6083388.stm

"On one of the pictures, a soldier is seen holding the skull next to his exposed penis, on another - soldiers pose with the skull on their jeep."

[gregimotis]

Fortunately he didn't post ALL the photos...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6083388.stm

"On one of the pictures, a soldier is seen holding the skull next to his exposed penis, on another - soldiers pose with the skull on their jeep."

Lets say somebody on this board got into a fight somewheres and I happen to have a video camera and record it. Now let's say I want to sell the images to the local paper.
Is my paper most likely to buy... A frame from the beginning of the vid where our member is trying to talk his way out of a fight?
A frame from the end of the vid where our member is calling 911 and staying on the scene to make sure things work out?
A frame where our members fist is stuffed right up into some guys gob and the blood and spit is flying left and right?


Now take that little scenario, multiply by 150,000 plus soldiers and 3-4,000 photographers all running around trying to get a Pulitzer.

[gregimotis]

Dick gets all moralistic about a soldier posing with the remains of a dead person, yet he uses a picture of an alive mentally ill person in his signature?

Excellent point.

[gregimotis]

Here Dick, I'll start it out:

[Tom Yum]

Nothing more beautiful than earning the hearts and minds of others.

[the tick]

Whats the point of this particular thread?

[the tick]

I thought so. But I was wondering why he was posting about something that happened nearly 4 years ago. And was completely blown out of proportion by the German tabloids like BILD-zeitung, from which those photos are, last year. Without a personal comment.

[DickHardman]

Nothing wrong with fighting hard, or with conditioning yourself to the horrors of war. It's fair to assume the soldiers in that picture were not the ones who killed whomever that skull belonged to. It is old, dry, and packed with dirt like it might be if freshly dug up from a long-term grave. That guy's been dead a while.

The Germans holding it, however, are very much alive. As such, they are in need of coping mechanisms and tactics that will make the enemy fear them.

It's a funny thing about assumptions. You can't really be sure what they're doing, why they are there, or what unit they are attached to. You can assume that they are callous, nasty, unfeeling bastards that are showboating with a dead enemy's skull. You could also assume that they are with the mortuary unit, charged with the recovery and identification of old remains. Given the condition of the skull and the likelihood of it being quite old, one is just as safe an assumption as the other.

I'd be interested in an experiment, Dick. For one week, I'd love it if you'd try to look for the best in people instead of the worst. I say this without malice, and I'm not in the least bit upset. I just think it'd be a fun game. Are you up for it? Here's the deal:

For one week, try to find and post two links or stories about people doing positive things or living up to high and noble ideals. I'm curious to see if such an exercise might skew your perceptions back toward the center some.

I will, of course, subject myself to a similar experiment designed by you - just to be fair about things.

the best part of this post is where you talk about "assumptions", yet you have made quite a lot about me despite that fact that i didnt post any kind of opinion, just a picture.

you guys are the ones who made all the assumptions, not me.

i post positive things all the time, nobody cares about that shit. i posted an entire documentary called gangs of iraq that shows how hard american soldiers are trying to help iraqis. i posted tons of material on iraqis trying to better their country and fight terrorism. again, nobody said anything about all that.


all i did was post a picture, the only people who made assumptions about others were mike b and bri. you cant tell someone not to make assumptions about others mike, then write 2 big posts back to back were you make tons and tons of assumptions about someone you dont know, and i didnt make an assumptions to begin with. your assumption about my assumption was just one big assumption.


btw, do mortuary units normally strap skulls to the hoods of their vehicles? just curious.

[DickHardman]

Well, if history is any indicator, the purpose is for Dick Hardman to vent about the horrors of war and use obscure references completely without context to sway the opinions of non-soldiers. Often, it's the same story across the boards, and Dick is by no means alone. Many people turn on the TV and they see things that happen in war, and it makes them shudder. They think to themselves, "How can we be a part of such things?!" But they neither want the real answer to that question, nor the solution.

again, more assumptions about a person you dont even know. im actually pretty dissapointed that you would say im not interested in real answers and real solotions. if not me, then who? none of my peers, none that i know of, have fallowed the war on terrorism every single day since it started. nobody else among my peers that im aware of cares that our soldiers are dying and fighting every single day, they have more important things to do like watch sopranos and entourage. please dont spread lies about me. you dont know me at all.

But you have to wonder how anyone can take someone seriously when they condemn others for subjective value-judgement based behaviors, all the while sitting at home getting high and making fun of fat kids.

yeah, funny how you say this yet this post was nothing but one big assumption about me. by your own words we shouldnt be taking anything you say seriously mike, cause all you did was make a bunch of judgments about me, and then tried to say i was the one making all these judgments lol....are you pulling my chain now???

[Tom Yum]

I'm not sure how close your siutation is to what Mike described, but he touched on some excellent points!

Where da hell are all the folks who love their country, despite what they say and why aren't they doing their part?

I've already met a handfull of men, while at MEPS in their early to mid 40's and women in their mid to late 30's, whom are enlisting in the army - they come from differing backgrounds, but what's interesting and motivating is why they are here.

I chose a different branch, but I know what I will see and do will put me close to the issues at hand.

[DickHardman]

The next fatal flaw is that people watch TV and think that they have the knowledge, understanding, or even the right to comprehend the intricacies of war and how it's fought. Try and find me an average McDonald's worker that can tell you everything about the food-chain business, let alone everything about how to prosecute a successful war effort. What you get are a bunch of non-soldiers trying to tell soldiers how to do their jobs. The hard truth of the matter is, people like Dick Hardman simply do not have the capacity or experience to understand the whole picture of what wars are and how they're fought. That's not meant as an insult - it's just the truth. Many of these same people would be offended to no end if someone followed them around all day, criticizing them for how they did their jobs, and most of them have jobs that are totally inconsequential when compared with what our soldiers do every day. They sit at home, growing beards, smoking pot, and talking about how we ought to be fighting a war to decide the fate of western civilization, when they generally have a hard time not being late to work on a regular basis themselves. You have to take some of it with a grain of salt.

lol yeah, what bs. i post 1 pic and dont even give my opinion about it, and all of a sudden its some kind of attempt at controlling the way wars are fought by our government, or some kinda attempt at brainwashing civilians into hating our soldiers lol. get over yourself mike, and stop spreading lies about me and making assumptions about people you know nothing about. the fact that you try to reprimand me for being judgmental and making assumptions of others when you are really the only one here that has been doing it shows an insane amount of hypocrisy on your part, so much so that im not even sure if you are being serious here or joking around.

really just sounds like you were trying to go out of your way to badmouth me. its ok though, this isnt the first time you have done that.

all i try to do is post some interesting stuff to liven up the forum. if you guys prefer to keep reading about matt blakes gi and jacket thats cool, no hard feelings. but you dont need to try and take all kinds of ridiculous cheap shots at me.

you and tom keep talking about how people are concerned but dont do anything. then you turn around and badmouth the very people who are the most concerned of all. if trying to understand a very complex situation, studying it, going out and voting, and trying to get others to pay more attention is somehow wrong of me, or is somehow me not doing anything at all, i have to disagree. go try find your average 23 year old male on the street and try to have a serious conversation with him about iraq. see how that goes, then come tell me im not interested in solutions and real answers. that is if these posts of yours werent all just a joke.

[DickHardman]

Forgive me, Dick. I thought the "bad times" statement you made was you expressing an opinion. In fact, I believe it's reasonable to assume that your comment was intended to cast those four year-old photos in a distinct light. You can deny this, of course, but I feel as though common sense provides all the insight any casual observer needs.

As for my "assumptions" about you, let's clarify.

Have you ever been in the military?You have answered this before, and you said that you had not. That is not an assumption.

Do you smoke pot?
Again, you've freely admitted thistime and again. It's not an assumption if I'm quoting you.

Do you with some regularity post anti-war threads and replies slanted against the US and its allies?Yes, you do. I have given you credit and praise for your increasing maturity and efforts toward balance, but if you're being honest, you're still showing serious anti-west leanings when you post about the war. Digging up four year-old pictures and posting them without commentary is borderline propagandist. so it doesn't really matter if you don't want to admit it. it's still quite clearly true.

Do you have a background that would allow you to comprehend the full scope and depth of how wars are fought?
Again, by your very own admission, no you do not. You have not lived through wars, you have not held positions in which you're responsible for making life and death decisions involving volunteer soldiers' lives, and you have no background of service in any branch of the military. You are a relatively young civilian without the tools to comprehend wars in the same way as commanders are required to. You may understand war from a media-fed, personally insulated point of view, but that's hardly the same thing. If I am wrong about that, please correct me.

Now, on to the real point of my "assumptions." First let me reiterate that I am not upset, nor hostile toward you, Dick. On the contrary, I see this as a great chance for some good debate and personal introspection on both our parts. Like I said, I'm interested to see what would happen to your overall point of view if you spent a full week ignoring all conspiracy theory propaganda, all anti-war, anti-US, pro-terrorism, "The US and its allies are always committing atrocities!" stuff. I'm intensely curious as to whether or not you have the intellectual curiosity to suspend your normal patterns and take a look at things from the other side. I'm willing to do it, and I'll do it according to your rules. If you want, I'll dig into every conspiracy theory I can find, and defend it for a week while you're taking a vacation and looking at the positive. I think it would be a good way for each of us to walk that proverbial mile in one another's shoes, and I think it would teach us both a lot about what makes the other tick - assuming you were open to the idea and really pursued it honestly. If not, go back and take a look at the list of so-called assumptions I made. I put them in bold so they'd be easy to find. Tell us all how they're inaccurate so I don't make the same mistakes again. And while you're at it, please tell us all how they can be assumptions if I'm just repeating things you've said about yourself in the first place.

none of that has anything to do with the fact that you did nothing but make a bunch of assumptions and cheap shots at me.

you say im pro terrorism? anti usa? **** you.

im not interested in discussing anything with you at all cause you are going to do nothing but take cheap shots me. you arent looking for a real discussion, you are just trying to change the subject after your ridiculous hypocrisy was pointed out.

[DickHardman]

This is a great point, so I thought I'd give it its own reply. You're absolutely right, Dick. I do make that criticism often. In your case, I may be totally wrong, and if so, I will apologize with heartfelt sincerity. To figure that out, let's look at your objectives, and the methods by which you're choosing to pursue them.

You say that you are trying to understand a complex situation. That is admirable, and I wish more people would try in earnest to understand the way you say you are trying. I commend you for this effort. What concerns people like me and Tom (sorry if I'm speaking for you, here, TY) is when people who claim to be seeking "understanding of things complex" pursue that understanding through propagandist media outlets and sensationalist magazines. For example, how much do you know about the magazine you cited here? Is it reputable? Credible? Does it present a moderate, fair, and balanced approach to journalism? Do you speak enough German to understand what the article said? One of the biggest obstacles to ever get in the way of real understanding is basing one's opinions attitudes, and beliefs on bias and prejudice. If the sources from which you're seeking your understanding are presenting the facts in a completely skewed manner, then you're going to have beliefs that are skewed as well. It's the same reason I listen to Conservative talk radio in the evenings, but NPR in the mornings. It's the reason I register Democrat, even though I normally vote Republican. Balance. How do you suppose it affects my views when I receive all the Democrat campaign material in the mail, and none of the Conservative stuff? I am exposed to more information from the "other side" than my own, and I'm forced to include that in my belief system. Likewise, I don't get my news from the networks. I'd rather read a transcript of a speech than hear a journalist give an opinion on that same speech, so I go out and try to find raw data.

For example, if I formed my opinion of the Iraq war primarily from listening to speeches by Hugo Chavez, Hollywood insiders, and Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, my view might be a litte different than if my opinion came from Soldier of Fortune magazine. it's not your efforts I'm criticizing, Dick, nor your intentions. I think both are noble and admirable in many respects. What I'm criticising is your apparent tendency to look toward sources that will confirm views you already have instead of looking for information on which to base opinions that come from you yourself. It seems (and admittedly, that's an assumption on my part) that you go looking for things that will support your opinions to the exclusion of new or different information. This is evident in many areas, from your moon landing and UFO threads to the war in Iraq. More times than not, what you post appears little more than a collection of data that points to conclusions you've already reached. That, my good man, is not a search for understanding. In fact, it's the very thing you and many others rightly criticized Bush for doing when he tailored intelligence reports to justify the war in the first place. If Bush was wrong for doing it, and the criticisms aimed at him are justified, then you must also acknowledge that it's worng for you to do it and claim that it's just honest attempts at "undrstanding." When the sources and conclusions are paired up from the outset, you're not seeking understanding. You're seeking justification.

uh, all i did was post a somewhat interesting picture. nothing more, nothing less. you are the one who used it as an excuse to put me down multiple times and came up with all this stuff.

you dont need to know all about the backround of a picture just to look at it.

all that conspiracy stuff i post is mostly for shits and giggles, again i dont know what that has to do with all this. surely you could see the extreme humor in a video made by insurgents trying to convince people that they are actually trying to save the world ...... i post all kinds of stuff, stuff about my coworker, stuff about iraq, stuff about martial arts, stuff about women, all kinds of stuff. you choose to focus on the negative stuff.

i dont know how all that equates to me being pro terrorism, anti usa, or anti handicapped people.

i dont need to engage in any experiments, because i have plenty of threads that focus on positive things already and they arent hard to find.

ive posted tons of videos and documentaries showing iraqis and Americans working together to rid iraq of terrorists. nobody seems to catch those.