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Senator Obama VS Senator Clinton

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  • Liberty
    replied
    Guys, check this one out - whoa! Can you imagine the cat fight?

    Clinton-Obama, Obama-Clinton
    How they could run together and take turns being president.
    By Akhil Reed Amar
    Posted Friday, March 21, 2008, at 6:45 PM ET
    When Hillary Clinton recently floated the idea of choosing Barack Obama as her running mate, she won political points without being taken seriously...


    When Hillary Clinton recently floated the idea of choosing Barack Obama as her running mate, she won political points without being taken seriously (especially by Obama). The primary season has turned into the kind of slog and slugfest that makes opponents more opposed to each other, not less. But humor me, for a moment, and imagine that the kind of reconciliation that would allow them to be running mates is possible. Not to mention the best outcome for the party.

    But which should it be: Clinton-Obama or Obama-Clinton? In fact, voters in November could actually endorse both versions of the ticket—truly, two presidents for the price of one. How? The Constitution's 25th Amendment allows for a new paradigm of political teamwork: The two Democratic candidates could publicly agree to take turns in the top slot.

    Adopted in 1967 in the shadow of John F. Kennedy's assassination, the 25th Amendment allows presidents unilaterally to transfer presidential power to their vice presidents and enables presidents, with congressional consent, to fill a vacancy in the vice presidency should one arise. By creatively using the constitutional rules created by this amendment, the Democrats can, if they are so inclined, present the voters in November with a new kind of balanced ticket.

    Here's how it would work: In August at the Democratic National Convention, the party would nominate one candidate for president and the other for vice president in the time-honored way. In their acceptance speeches, the nominees would announce that they intend to alternate. For example, they could tell the voters that the person heading the Democratic ticket would, if elected, take office in January 2009 but would serve as president for only the first three years of the four-year term. In January 2012, the teammates would use the 25th Amendment to switch places, and the person elected vice president would assume the presidency for the final year of the term. There is nothing magical about these dates. Almost any date would do. For maximal democratic legitimacy, however, the candidates should inform the voters before the election of the specific date when their planned shift of power will occur.

    Of course, if this dream team proved popular in office, the teammates could run for re-election in 2012. This time, it might make the most sense for the ticket to be the inverse of 2008. Thus, the person at the bottom of the 2008 ticket could top the 2012 ticket. If re-elected, our initial-VP-turned-president might then serve until, say, January 2016—four consecutive years in all—and then our initial-president-turned-VP would resume the top spot for the final year of the second term. (Thus, this person, too, would end up serving four years, albeit not consecutively.)

    And here's the icing on the constitutional cake: Nothing in the 25th Amendment or elsewhere in the founding document would prevent this team from presenting themselves to the electorate in similar fashion in 2016. If the voters were to endorse the pair yet again, then at this point one of the teammates would have been elected twice as president and would become ineligible in any future presidential race; but the other teammate would in fact remain fully eligible to run in 2020. With the result that, if voters so chose, the teammates could, between themselves, share power for a total of four full terms. (Under the 22nd Amendment, no person can be elected to the presidency more than twice; and under the 12th Amendment, vice presidents must meet the same eligibility and electability rules as presidents.)

    Ticket-flipping, then, provides a brilliant way for the Democrats to leverage the advantages of incumbency after 2009 so as to stretch their potential presidential tenure over the ensuing 16 years rather than the standard eight. The arrangement requires two strong candidates, each of whom is very plausibly presidential and each of whom has a large and intense political base, whose enthusiasm would be needed to assure success in the general election. This year the Democrats are blessed with two such powerhouses.

    Which of the two candidates should top the ticket in 2008? Whoever ends up with more delegates at the convention. But if the two can privately—or even publicly—agree now to run as a true team in the general election, both will have ironclad incentives to play nice in the remaining primaries and caucuses and at the convention itself. If you're ready to dismiss out of hand the idea that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama would ever agree to run as a team, here's my argument on why they might find doing so to be in their mutual interest. Each will want to head the ticket, but because the person on the bottom will also become president if the pair wins in November, competition for the top spot will be far less likely to spiral out of control in the turbulent weeks and months ahead. And so for the party, the benefits are manifold: A dream-team, turn-taking ticket would ensure that the Democrats' two most popular leaders and their supporters behave themselves and then truly unite. Moreover, the policy differences between Clinton and Obama are so tiny that it would be perfectly principled to tell voters that the ticket will flip at some specified post-inaugural date.

    Exactly how does the Constitution enable a sitting president and vice president to trade places? Whenever a president resigns, the vice president automatically becomes president, as when Richard Nixon stepped down and thus made Gerald Ford president in 1974. Under the 25th Amendment, the new president, in turn, picks a new vice president, subject to congressional approval. President Ford picked Nelson Rockefeller to be his vice president, and Congress said yes. Here's the twist: The 25th Amendment would allow the new president to pick the old president as the new vice president. Voila—the ticket, flipped! As long as the Congress approves, the 25th Amendment would thus enable the president and vice president to switch seats in a nimble transaction that could be completed in less than an hour.

    As a matter of democratic principle, Congress should approve such a deal, given that the American voters would have blessed it long in advance, in the presidential election itself. But suppose a pigheaded Congress refused to play along, for example, because it was controlled by Republican naysayers. No matter. Instead of formally resigning, a president could accomplish the flip on his or her own, simply by transferring presidential power to the vice president under a different section of the 25th Amendment that allows the president unilaterally to transform the vice president into the "Acting President." In 2002 and again in 2007, George W. Bush used this section to hand over power to Dick Cheney before undergoing brief anesthesia. When Bush recovered, he resumed the reins of power.

    To be clear: At every instant, America would have one and only one person acting as president and formally in charge. Hand-offs of power between teammates would occur much as they have when incumbents traditionally leave office, as when Reagan yielded in 1989, at the end of his second term, to his own handpicked running mate, the first George Bush. The 25th Amendment was specially designed to facilitate easy transfers of power back and forth between presidents and vice presidents. Its full potential to create a different kind of teamwork at the top—and to launch a new kind of presidential election strategy—has yet to be fully appreciated. Thanks to this amendment, the Demoocratic Party need not tear itself apart in trying to choose between two historic firsts. Instead, Democrats can offer the voters both—the first black president and the first woman president—via the first truly balanced presidential ticket.

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  • Liberty
    replied
    Speaking of a freebie, Mike, check this out - darn it, now we have to hash it out, oh why didn't I keep this to myself...

    Leave a comment:


  • Liberty
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Brewer
    Yeah, I'm apt to be a very Teddy Roosevelt / Andrew Jackson type politician. I'll speak my mind, let people know where I stand, and treat them according to their own merits rather than making mass generalizations about them because of where they're from or what party they belong to. I'll be honest and candid when I can be, and I'll do whatever I can do to make sure I'm prepared to intelligently discuss whatever's on the table.

    Of course, I'll more than likely be a Republican, so I guess your mind is already made up, eh?
    Who knows? What do you expect from a kid - that he remain there even later in his life? Didn't think so. You've got my vote. Then again, in twenty years Icould wind up the Obama to your Mccain - LOL! Whoops, left myself wide open on that one. Oh well, you deserve a freebie, have at it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Liberty
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Brewer
    Yes, I am serious about it and I do take it seriously. Political debate is an important part of good citizenship to me. More than that, it's a career field I fully intend to enter within a few years. So when I point out that your views as they've been expressed here are bigoted and ignorant, that's a truth - a fact. That it's entertaining to you is good, because hey, everyone needs to laugh. As for name calling and "ribbing," it was you who began that exchange. The fact that you tend to hide behind those kinds of insults with mock humility doesn't change what you were trying to accomplish. it just makes you more dishonest about it.

    It was also you that folded like a lawn chair when faced with actual facts.

    Since everyone appears to have wandered away from this, I'll tell you what it is about Obama's candidacy that appeals to me. For one, I support a progressive tax. Arieson, are you listening? I believe that taxes should be scaled in proportion to wealth. Where I part company with the Democrats is that I do not believe it should be a flat ratio. I also do not believe that we should say we support a free market and then run it as if it were a command economy. We can't say we support the supply and demand reality of the market and at the same time try to control the economy from the Executive office. In case you missed the last century or two, that's exactly what's brough down virtually every command economy on earth. It's also why the ones that still exist (North Korea, for example) are only alive because of the charity of others. As such, we have to let the economy do what it's supposed to, and we need to give both supply side and demand side incentives. To me, that means a progressive tax that isn't designed to penalize the rich, nor to give undue relief to the poor. It should be moderate in scale in order to give the poor a little more money to spend each month, to put the burden of taxation on those most able to pay, and also fair in acknowledging that we are all citizens who enjoy the same opportunities and we all need to contribute. Obama seems to share that belief, although his economic plan is a little too enabling for my taste. I'm not a fan of entitlement and I think it weakens society, and so I'm not 100% behind Obama.

    I also agree with Obama in that we should reward companies that keep jobs here in the US. However, I think he again makes too radical a stance on it. Obama borders on isolationism in his desire to provide incentives to US-only corporations. His views are unrealistic in a global economy. McCain, however, swings vastly in the opposite direction. McCain tends to be too global for my taste, and doesn't protect American workers enough. The "correct" approach, in my view, is somewhere in the middle.

    Likewise - immigration. I'm for legal guest worker programs and allowing immigrants - even illegal ones - into colleges and other schools. I think they should have to pay out of state tuition since they're here illegally (as in "not legal residents"), but I don't see any benefit in keeping the population stupid.

    Look Libby, you apparently got into this because you like to argue and you saw it as a chance to shit on some Republicans because you just don't like "them." As if they all prescribe to the very same views across the boards. You weren't judging people individually then, and you still aren't. You see a party, not a man or a candidate, and for that, you're incapable of having an intelligent discussion on the topic. This is a discussion about two candidates and their ideas, policies, track records, and character. If you insist on judging them by anything other than who they are and what they stand for as individuals, then you're no better than a talk show editorial. It's not discussion.

    If you'd like to talk about things in terms of the individuals who are most likely going to be on our next presidential ballot, I'm always game. But if you're just going to generalize everything the candidates are about because of what party they belong to, you're frankly a waste of time. So if it's all the same, stay true to your orignial little temper tantrum and skulk away to go look up some more Bruce Lee trivia or offer up something worthy of actual discussion. Either way, it's cool. I'm sure Bruce Lee trivia has a lot more value than this to a lot of people, and there's got to be at least one person out there with a burning desire to know more about why Bruce had only one testicle. You're just the guy to look that kind of stuff up. But I think you're out of your depth here.
    Either way, it's cool. Have to say, if you remain the outspoken guy you are you're going to make one heck of an interesing candidate. Hopefully you'll stick to this aspect of yourself and not sell out once you do run. For, though I don't always agree with nor savor your crudeness (sometimes it is hilarious to imagine you pissed off to high heaven), I do appreciate it's real.

    Leave a comment:


  • Liberty
    replied
    [Quote] Since Liberty is inept, incapable, and very possibly mentally impaired along with his prejudices... [QUOTE]

    Couldn't resist coming back and looking over the posts. Gotta say Mike, and this just may prove the above, but the above comments and a few others you've made about me has me in stitches! I guess I'm amused by how serious you got about this, the name calling and all.

    I know this may not be your cup of tea but I just don't hold to Republican ideals. Qualifications are important but the fact is that both partys hold to different, opposing ideals for solving problems. I could not vote Republican from that basis. Again, I'm aware you don't agree, and I'm fine with that.

    Happy Easter Kiddo..

    Leave a comment:


  • jubaji
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Brewer
    Jubaji, I disagree with Ghost's point of view, but I haven't found him to be disagreeable as a person. Actually, he's the only one so far that's actually attempted to put some rationale behind what he's saying.


    The guy whose basic premise is that we should choose our president based on his middle name and skin tone? The guy who believes the rest of the world has a say in our electoral process? That guy? Spin it all you want, but that is what he came into this disucssion with; superficialities, racism, and presumptuousness. Everything else has been an add-on to try and make him look less the fool. And what else have we been treated to? Ridiculous dead-end arguments that experience isn't as important as a person's middle name and speaking style? Fan-boy conjecture about who he 'believes' is more intelligent? More illogical speculation about what the "Muslim world" thinks, wants, respects, and the notion that such speculation should drive our choice of president? Ignoring or denying obvious and well-documented contradictions and short-comings? Come on.

    You want to have a discussion but at the end of the day, you are having it with yourself because ghost is about a half-step behind D.I. on the Stupid Scale. Sorry.

    Leave a comment:


  • DickHardman
    replied
    mr arieson, i like your posts, but damn, you really are one of those liberals who is so far on the left that you really end up on the right. mr arieson has good intentions, i can see that. he wants to better america and wants solutions to our problems. however, he wants them so bad that he does not realize how fanatical and narrow minded its starting to make him, similar to the berkley protesters that want peace and tolerance so bad that they are willing to physically attack others who do not see eye to eye with them. dont fall into that ditch mr arieson, you know better.


    also, i am once again very amused by jubaji and how that self proclaimed "linguist" and school teacher cant spit out anything more eloquent than a couple swear words and the smiley face thats flipping the bird, which is supposed to somehow be a change of pace from his usual one liners that he ends with the "rolling eyes" smiley that people like tom yum and harball think is so hilarious, even though they have seen jubaji use it to compliment the same four or five one liners he has repeated 8,000 thousand times now.

    Leave a comment:


  • jubaji
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
    Based on the tone of your posts, now and in the past, I stand on my statement that I don't believe you would ever vote for any democrat unless it was Zell Miller.


    Not only does D.I. just make shit up rather than responding to what people say, but even in the face of direct contradiction by the people involved he chooses to cling to his little fantasies regardless of the truth.

    Which is why D.I., ghost, and the like are not worth engaging in the kind of serious discussion Mike keeps trying to engage in. They are monumentally stupid, and no amount of discourse or compilation of facts is going to crack the wall of ignorance and irrationality surrounding them.

    In short, Mr. Airheadson.

    Leave a comment:


  • jubaji
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
    That's you republicanos territory.


    you people keep talking about "qualifications" and I call BS on that. this has nothing to do with qualifications,
    It is my belief that even if the republican party puts forth the most retarded candidate possible, and the democrats put up a genius, you guys STILL would not vote for him.

    So why not try being honest about things for a while?

    I swear, you guys are like these so called "creation scientists" who already know the answer, and then go ahead and find "facts" which support your theory.


    that does not fit the paradigm that all democrats are hippy commie liberals.

    Get it?
    Psssst! You're doing it again, D.I.

    Leave a comment:


  • jubaji
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
    Ghost, why do you bother using logic.


    D.I., you gave up the right to even use the word "logic" long ago. STFU, idiot.

    Leave a comment:


  • jubaji
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghost View Post
    there are muslim extremists that are enemies but there arent any governments as such that are enemies.

    What do you think they want to do exactly? and why?
    You know the reason they attack america is because of its foreign policy, i thought that was quite clear.
    You dont want to be taking a tougher stance now, you need to sort out the issue. Its americas fault in the first place, that is clear. However, America does NOT deserve what happened. But it happened for a reason.
    And that reason is in the middle east and needs sorting.

    You dont seem to understand that the middle east want Obama and its not so they can take over america or some other nonsense.
    Have you even been to the middle east before? you should try it sometime its really quite nice.
    They want someone they can respect and not lose face to in the process.
    They can compromise to a white republican like McCain, you should really try to go to the middle east and understand their culture. They can compromise with a democrat with the name Hussein as he can be passed off as half one of them. They know it, he knows it and it would work.

    I feel like im telling basics to a child.

    I'm sure you "feel" like a lot of things because you can't recognize what a fucking moron you are. Seriously, you are about a half a step behind D.I. in that regard.

    So, your particular, prejudiced, ridiculous political opinions are what is "clear," and you know what everyone in the entire Middle East (again, you seem to gloss over your shift from the Muslim world in general) wants in the US presidential election and why? Further, you think that what 'they' want (and of course your own personal racial prejudices) should be the basis upon which we choose our next leader? How the hell do you function on a day to day basis with such an infirm grasp on reality?

    You are just flat-out stupid.

    Leave a comment:


  • jubaji
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
    Have you ever voted for a democrat? No, I did not think so. I have made my point. Actually, your voting record makes it for me.


    Do you not realize what you are doing, or do you just not care, D.I.?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghost
    replied
    alright mike, will have a read properly tomorrow going to post crap around the forum for now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghost
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
    Ghost, why do you bother using logic and actual words against a guy like Jubaji who just curses and swears like a 20 year old punk? Really, why bother? You have seen this dolt's responses, all filled with rage and venom. I mean, you are making logical points. It's a waste of your time with a cretin that can only hurl baby-ish insults. He only SAYS he has a degree in philosophy and is a teacher or professor or what ever the **** he is claiming he is. But what he REALLY is, is an internet troll....in the classic sense!

    It's too bad someone hacked this site and got rid of all the past posts. Because you would see that in almost 8000 posts, this whack-job teenager who also goes by the user name "Matbla" has said nothing, offered nothing, and at every step of the way has proven himself to be a super troll. I don't have to even bother proving my point, because any one of this mental patient, living at home with the parents, budwieser drinking, Rush Limbaugh listening menace's posts proves exactly what I say.
    I know, its a bit silly.
    I was hoping he might actually say something at some stage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghost
    replied
    Originally posted by jubaji View Post
    Nice to see you are getting your money's worth on that crack you are smoking, idiot.



    Whenever they let you out of detox you can let me know how it is you don't think there are any enemies of America in the Muslim world (which is what you said at first, but stick to the Middle East if its easier for your one brain cell to remember).

    there are muslim extremists that are enemies but there arent any governments as such that are enemies.

    What do you think they want to do exactly? and why?
    You know the reason they attack america is because of its foreign policy, i thought that was quite clear.
    You dont want to be taking a tougher stance now, you need to sort out the issue. Its americas fault in the first place, that is clear. However, America does NOT deserve what happened. But it happened for a reason.
    And that reason is in the middle east and needs sorting.

    You dont seem to understand that the middle east want Obama and its not so they can take over america or some other nonsense.
    Have you even been to the middle east before? you should try it sometime its really quite nice.
    They want someone they can respect and not lose face to in the process.
    They can compromise to a white republican like McCain, you should really try to go to the middle east and understand their culture. They can compromise with a democrat with the name Hussein as he can be passed off as half one of them. They know it, he knows it and it would work.

    I feel like im telling basics to a child.

    Leave a comment:

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