Senator Obama VS Senator Clinton

[Hardball]

Now what? Can Senator Clinton help Obama win the big one?

[jubaji]

A Hillary-Obama ticket would be almost unbeatable.

If by "almost" you mean "not at all," you're right.

[Dim Wit Moc]

The whole thing is probably going to play out this way. The Democrats are going to shoot themselves in the foot again and they won't need any help from Ralph Nader this time.

All this talk of "great change" is going to go up in smoke. A Hillary-Obama ticket would be almost unbeatable, but we are dealing with power seeking politicians and not statesmen or statespersons.

Obama is going to win the popular vote, unless something really drastic happens. It has to be more dramatic than the rhetoric of some albatross preacher. It would have to be on the scale of a Tanya Harding move, or worse.

No way are the Super Delegates gonna go against the popular vote unless they want an all out war at the convention. Many of the Obama haters and Hillary supporters will not vote or they will vote for McCain.

Presto, there will be 4-8 more years of a Repulican President.

Oh well. Ballots are still a lot better than bullets.

[Hardball]

By all accounts she is still well behind in popular votes and delegates.

After Penn. she claims to be ahead in the popular vote and the Super Delegates.

[jubaji]

By all accounts she is still well behind in popular votes and delegates.

[Hardball]

How do you figure that last part of your statement?

It's up for debate. LOL Besides, Senator Clinton is claiming to be ahead in the Popular Vote.

[jubaji]

How do you figure that last part of your statement?

[Hardball]

Well, Well, Well, Senator Clinton wins Pennsylvania and now it looks like she will win the whole thing................................

[Liberty]

Mike, I don't know what else to say. I started out defending Obama. I'd about made up my mind to vote for the guy when some of your challenges , and what I was seeing on the tube - the 3 negatives I've already mentioned caused me to seriously consider some research. Serious negatives in my book. I also began to consider McCain. Then , it dawned on me all I'd ever heard were his Vietnam prison time over and over, which bothered me. Still, in light of how you felt about the guy I began to research him and found all had not been rosy. So I held back on both. I'd already put my research on Obama on hold as I did not see a point. And now I felt the same way about McCain. I truly had sought your help on all this. That's unfair, I know. I'm a big boy. But this is my first election (just turned 18 last week) and I did not want to screw my vote up. Please understand that I see character above qualifications and past deeds. As an example of what I mean, these past few years the Roman Catholic Church has been rocked to it's core by the revelation that some of it's priests, men known for years of good service in their communities, have all along been active pedophiles and rapists. Nothing new for anyone who knows Church history. Despite there years of service, some of these people have been monsters.... The governor of Puerto Rico is currently under indictment on campaign fraud - the very thing he voewd to claen up during his run for office. I'm sorry Mike, but I firmly believe digging up the dirt along with the good on elected officials is not only wise but necessary. Spew all the vile you wish to spew at me. But it will not alter my conviction on this in the least. That said, I see no cause to continue to try to reason with you on any of this any further. In this you have been a great letdown. Respectfully...

[Liberty]

And as you do so, you'd also do well to remember Mike's Rule of Politics #!:

Judge the issues, the ideas, and the people on their individual merit, within context. Changing the context changes the content.

In fact, Liberty, I'm going to make you a deal:

I am going to delete every single post you make on this topic from this point forward unless you will answer this question:

Why won't you post material about your candidate, Barack Obama?

Do you realize that if you'd spent an equal amount of time and effort educating people about Obama, we'd (a) actually be having a discussion, and (b) learn a little bit about both sides?

Nice way to control this issue to your liking. Sad.

I doubt this will appease your attempts to shift things your way but here's my explanation anyway, thanks, by th way, to your one-sided advice to open my eyes - I do not trust Obama his Rezko connection, his Wright denials, nor his constant harping on how he protested going to war in Iraq. In this he is no better than McCain's subtle manipulation of his time in a Vietnam prison ages ago, etc. Now, why would I post Obama's supposed qualifications given the above?

[Liberty]

McCain's True Record

Mike, you see fit to post only the positive on McCain, you might want to have a look at this:

http://www.wmsa.net/People/john_mccain/ariz-republic_chap_I_1999.htm

[Liberty]

Liberty, for just once, speak plainly. Are you saying that you would not trust McCain as a President because he attacked an opponent on the campaign trail?

I am saying I'd hesitate to trust anyone who falsely attacked someone throughout the campaign trail. Quit making my answer grey!

To paraphrase Romney, show me where I have said I would not trust some one simply because they did their job and challenged/attacked someone on issues that needed addressing! Again:

I am saying I'd hesitate to trust anyone who falsely attacked someone throughout the campaign trail.

Having hopefully cleared that up, let me explain my use of the word "hesitate."

When Obama found himself having to back peddle on his previous claim he'd never heard Wright's comments, I had the following reaction, 'He is either simply lying, or he found himself cornered/under pressure and blurted out the first thing he could think of, to his later regret, or there is some other reason.'

I am saying that I think I'll hold back on my verdict as to whether or not he deserves my vote, for now.

When I saw McCain both misquote and (in other parts) quote Romney not only out of context, but then reinterpret Romney, despite both Romney's and the moderator's having continually pointed that out to him, my reaction was similar to my reaction to Obama's slip-up, fabrication, what have you.

"Similar," in that McCain is a warrior. His fabrication, what have you, whatever, was clearly not a slip-up, was clearly not due to his having felt pressured. He was calm as he could be.

I am saying I'd hesitate to trust anyone who falsely attacked someone throughout the campaign trail. I am saying that I think I'll hold back, for now on my verdict as to whether or not either candidate deserves my vote.

You can trust a buddy in a fight even though he'd bend your girlfriend over the hood of his car if you weren't looking, so obviously you're capable of overlooking some character flaws if someone serves a greater purpose. So are you saying McCain's accomplishments mean less to you than his debates with his political opponents?

You're still avoiding the very core of the issue, and you're still dancing around without talking about the candidate you supported from the beginning of this.

I am saying I could walk away from a buddy who betrayed me. How the hell is that the same as a total of 4,000 moms and dads and counting, having to bury their precious, irreplacable sons and daughters, because so many trusted a candidate - you included - even though he lied through his teeth not only during his campaign for office, but to get us in the Iraqi mess we're now in?

Right, I'm somehow supposed to forget that lesson, throw all caution to the wind, once more, rather than hold final judgement until better facts are in, just to make you happy!

I'll make it really simple. Don't run around snipping and quoting. *_Just answer the following:_* Do you think McCain taking economic advice from Romney somehow makes him less able to be the President? Do you think Obama's choice of friends and advisors makes him more desirable than McCain, since you're very clearly willing to judge McCain by his association with Romney?

I think McCain's taking economic advice from Romeny, given Romney's having supposedly increased his fortune at the expense of thousands of job losses AND BANKRUPTCIES, should be cause for hesitency. Especially given that McCain is campaign war-chest poor and Romney has more money than Obama and Hilary combined can ever raise!

I'm saying it should be looked into.

I think Obama's friends and advisors should also be cause for hesitancy and further probing.

We're talking about people who will drastically efect the lives of millions for generations, not some pal one can simply walk away from should he prove a snake with one's girlfriend!

How you can equate these two scenarios to be one and the same just so you can hold your view is beyond any apt description!

I'm saying my verdict is still out on all but Hilary, whom I could never vote for given her's and her husband's treacherous ways.

Are we clear on all this, now? Never mind, what's the use?

[Liberty]

Very well. I'd hesitated to post this here since it's more in line with our "Liberty's Moral Issue" post. Perhaps it belongs here as well. Here it is:

See Mike, this is why I hold off til “the verdict is in.” McCain is now running around with Mitt Romney.

”Romney's tenure as CEO of the leveraged buyout firm Bain Capital resulted in the loss of thousands of jobs through layoffs and bankruptcies. Romney, the wealthiest candidate in the 2008 presidential race, ran Bain Capital from 1984 to 1999, during which time he earned the bulk of his fortune.

Bain Capital specialized in buying companies in distress and revamping them, often by cutting jobs and closing plants. Some of Bain's purchases became more efficient and successful businesses, while others, loaded with debt from Bain's fees, were forced into bankruptcy, costing more jobs.”

That kind of of support/concession/grey area is one I’d not concede.

Of course, now there’s talk of Romney as McCain’s possible running mate. If that should become reality, McCain may have found his Cheney, and Obama’s recent, “McCain is running for George Bush’s 3rd term,” may have been accurate.

"I value his advice and his counsel," McCain said, speaking to reporters in the Salt Lake City airport hangar after he and Romney joined up for the first of two fundraisers. "He has earned an important place in the Republican Party. . . . We are united -- now our job is to energize our party -- and I believe that Gov. Romney can play a very important role in that."

To quote your very words, Mike, " What does it way about a man's morals that he would continue to keep someone like that as a mentor and advisor when his views are so clearly immoral, unethical"

[DickHardman]

IN A wide-ranging foreign policy speech, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, John McCain, has promised a collaborative foreign policy that seeks the input of allies abroad, contrasting sharply with the go-it-alone approach of the Bush Administration.

Senator McCain refused to give ground on Iraq to his Democratic rivals, declaring the US's continued presence there was a "moral responsibility" and that a reckless withdrawal could lead to "genocide". Withdrawal would be an "unconscionable act of betrayal, a stain on our character as a great nation".

In his first major foreign policy statement, Senator McCain delivered an impassioned argument that achieving democracy in Iraq was a necessary part of a peaceful world.

"Those who argue that our goals in Iraq are unachievable are wrong, just as they were wrong a year ago when they declared the war already lost in Iraq," he said, without naming Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. "Those who claim we should withdraw from Iraq to fight al-Qaeda more effectively elsewhere are making a dangerous mistake."

But even as he defended President George Bush's war policy, he outlined a sharp critique of the Administration's dealings with foreign allies.

In a speech to the World Affairs Council in Los Angeles, Senator McCain called himself a "realistic idealist" and outlined a world view that mimicked some Bush Administration critics who say the first task of the next president must be to repair relations around the world. "Today we are not alone," he said. "Our great power does not mean we can do whatever we want whenever we want, nor should we assume we have all the wisdom and knowledge necessary to succeed."

The speech drew a quick response from Senator Obama's spokesman, Bill Burton, who lashed Senator McCain for vowing "to carry out four more years of George Bush's failed policies, including an open-ended war in Iraq that has cost us thousands of lives and billions of dollars while making us less safe".

Senator McCain renewed his call for a "global compact - a league of democracies" that would unite the world's free countries against tyranny, disease and environmental destruction. As he did in Europe last week, he downplayed cowboy diplomacy and stressed co-operation on global warming, torture and trade.

"We need to listen … to the views and respect the collective will of our democratic allies," he said. "When we believe international action is necessary, whether military, economic or diplomatic, we will try to persuade our friends that we are right. But we, in return, must be willing to be persuaded by them."

Mr Bush's foreign policy approach has moderated significantly in his second term, with greater outreach to European allies and a willingness to strike deals with countries such as North Korea. Senator McCain suggested he would embrace the controversial Bush policies on terrorism, Iraq and Afghanistan while extending Mr Bush's newfound willingness to meet allies halfway.

But Senator McCain said he would break sharply with Mr Bush's efforts to accommodate Russia, saying he would push to eject it from the Group of Eight club of industrial powers.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-election/iraq-exit-could-lead-to-genocide-mccain/2008/03/27/1206207301202.html

[jubaji]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1205420759325&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/y_news:y_news_highe_820:3a8ea6fd7e1dca84f0260e0b8dadbcc6

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7313117.stm

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MDMxMzhlMDBjNTRkNTFjOWFmM2JjOWRjNGEyOTk1ZGI=