Chillingly Insightful

[TTEscrima]

we went to war in iraq over WMDs that dont exist.
that has been proven and is known to be wrong. We went to war with afganistan because....well i dont really know why. i think it was because someone thought bin laden was in afganistan and therfore the whole country should be attacked.
doesnt make a lot of sense.
What does make sense is that our politicians like to find crap excuses to attack other countries for economic or strategic gain, perhaps even to be seen to be doing something.
Its quite clear that its very hard to fight terrorism as you dont have countries directly responsible. so in a way it doesnt make sense to attack anyone.
So far our terrorist attacks have been by people in our own countries, in our case in the UK they have been British citizens as far as i remember.
So whos fault is that?

To me this is a tiny minority of lunatics that are able to do a lot of damage. I dont see how attacking entire countries is a rational response, especially when most of these guys were born in our countries.

So what do we do, maybe we should have a look at saddam and bin ladens history and see how they got to where they are... and what do you know. America put them there.

What do we acheive by attcking iraq and afganistan? is the threat of terrorism less now?
Does it deter the terrorists, who afterall are already in our countries. it doesnt make any sense to me and it doesnt make sense to many others either.

Now you're talking.

[Ghost]

we went to war in iraq over WMDs that dont exist.
that has been proven and is known to be wrong. We went to war with afganistan because....well i dont really know why. i think it was because someone thought bin laden was in afganistan and therfore the whole country should be attacked.
doesnt make a lot of sense.
What does make sense is that our politicians like to find crap excuses to attack other countries for economic or strategic gain, perhaps even to be seen to be doing something.
Its quite clear that its very hard to fight terrorism as you dont have countries directly responsible. so in a way it doesnt make sense to attack anyone.
So far our terrorist attacks have been by people in our own countries, in our case in the UK they have been British citizens as far as i remember.
So whos fault is that?

To me this is a tiny minority of lunatics that are able to do a lot of damage. I dont see how attacking entire countries is a rational response, especially when most of these guys were born in our countries.

So what do we do, maybe we should have a look at saddam and bin ladens history and see how they got to where they are... and what do you know. America put them there.

What do we acheive by attcking iraq and afganistan? is the threat of terrorism less now?
Does it deter the terrorists, who afterall are already in our countries. it doesnt make any sense to me and it doesnt make sense to many others either.

[TTEscrima]

its just an idiotic thread and an idiotic arguement, no one in their right mind would agree with you and clearly no one does.
learn from it and move on.
its not an argument worth pursuing.

Now whose not living in reality, if you think no one believes that shit why do suppose Iraq and Afghanistan are currently chock full of foreign troops?
Far more people with the power to keep our troops there disagree with you than me bub, otherwise they wouldn't be there. If no Muslim terrorists had flown planes into the WTC, or strapped bombs to themselves in public places blowing women and children to bits then the president couldn't have mobilized the American forces to attack in the first place regardless of what you think his real reasons for doing so were. Flipping out over comments on a forum or a cartoon in the paper just furthers the stereotype. Someone needs to realize that by showing the world they're willing to kill their own people like todays suicide bombing at a wedding they make it much easier for people to sell the idea you want WMD's to obliterate us.

[Ghost]

Take it however you want, you got aggressive and called things idiotic instead of commenting on the actual errors you got emotional and gave me more ammo. I share your views and you couldn't convince me, but you got so worked up you made poking you fun.

its just an idiotic thread and an idiotic arguement, no one in their right mind would agree with you and clearly no one does.
learn from it and move on.
its not an argument worth pursuing.

[TTEscrima]

this is tiring and not worth commenting on. i can only hope the rest of the US forces dont think the way you do TTEscrima. I somehow think they dont think like you.
disgraceful.

Take it however you want, you got aggressive and called things idiotic instead of commenting on the actual errors you got emotional and gave me more ammo. I share your views and you couldn't convince me, but you got so worked up you made poking you fun.

[Ghost]

this is tiring and not worth commenting on. i can only hope the rest of the US forces dont think the way you do TTEscrima. I somehow think they dont think like you.
disgraceful.

no, I don't imagine you will

[TTEscrima]

With every post you make on this forum, you're coming across more and more as a bully. You're trying to blind people here to your constant attempts to overpower and discredit anyone who challenges your point of view. You're also wasting your time trying to bully me, because I see straight through you.

I have many friends who are American, and I have many friends who are Soldiers. I take comfort in the fact that your opinions, and the way you express them, are not reflective of any of them.

I look forward to your default response.

Still got your panties in a wad I see, first you're in helping Ghost accuse America of using its might to force our ways and views on the world. Then you accuse me of bullying people who challenge me or my views, and you finish by claiming I'm unlike any Americans you know. It sounds like you can't make up your mind where you stand or remember what you spouted off in the last sentence. Apparently it seems the only thing you're sure of is you don't like me. Gosh darn it, now I'll never be able to sleep at night.

With every post you make on this forum, you're coming across more and more as a bully. You're trying to blind people here to your constant attempts to overpower and discredit anyone who challenges your point of view. You're also wasting your time trying to bully me, because I see straight through you.

I have many friends who are American, and I have many friends who are Soldiers. I take comfort in the fact that your opinions, and the way you express them, are not reflective of any of them.

I look forward to your default response.

[TTEscrima]

I'm still alive, no one has tried to wipe me out yet, and I'm a Roman Catholic (which from your point of view probably means a member of the IRA).

Nice way to slip a personal attack in, that didn't aid your argument, it showed your inability to stick to facts and trust your comments to stand alone without adding in personal attacks. It told me I was already under you skin and you were going to be easy to trip up from that point on because in your first response you let emotion cloud your views and statement.

[TTEscrima]

Alright, time to come clean. I did get this from a friend in Iraq and it struck me as classic American Propaganda. It was named Warning terrifying truth and chillingly insightful. I decided to knock the title down to what I thought of it which was how it's chillingly insightful into how propaganda is spread. Then I kicked back and waited on the responses. Ready for a shocker? I tend to agree with you, except you guys can't even defend your own position with facts, it's no wonder you can't get any attention you're poorly informed and allow your emotions to cloud your ability to discuss things in a rational manner without inflaming the situation and shooting yourselves in the foot in the process. Every claim you made was easily turned right back on you and the actual facts you could have disputed went right over your heads. Information is power, get armed with the facts, study history don't just spout the first shit that comes to mind because you're mad, it makes you easier targets. Know your enemy, my last post was exactly how a red blooded American patriot would have responded to your blathering babble you're not doing yourself any favors by walking into the trap full of righteous indignation.

Now go read this thread:http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/o...s-like-go.html

You'll see I already argued you side with Mike there and used facts and history instead of emotion. Hope your heads didn't explode guys I'm just pointing out what you're up against and how you might fare better in future debates.

[TTEscrima]

Muslims are not instructed to wipe out the infidel.

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

This is madness, i personally think your post should be deleted

So I'm not allowed to voice my views eh? And you wonder why we're at war, We dare to speak and by god posts cartoons!!

and please dont think you will score any brownie points for serving in Iraq or Afganistan.

Not with terrorist sympathizers, I won't but the American women LOVE me, I've scored Brownies and more if you know what I mean.

What would you do if you were invaded?
Probably what they are doing.

Hey we didn't wait to get invaded, Muslim terrorists declared a jihad and flew airplanes into the world trade center and the pentagon. So we looked up Jihad in the ole dictionary realized it was declaration of war and said WHEEE doggies it's on!!

Now if that pissed you off look at it from their perspective. YOU invaded THEM. Why? They didnt do the terrorist attacks. Whats it got to do with Iraq or even afganistan? bin laden is Saudi and in Pakistan.
THe reality is America and the UK are the ones going around the world invading and bombing people for oil and power and if you stop for a minute you might see it. cos the rest of the world can see it. Thats why we are the most hated countries on earth, and we walk around thinking the russians and chinese were brain washed by their government. Well thats us.
Everyone outside can see it.

So you're claiming there are no terrorist in Afghanistan or Iraq? Get out much?
And I see you know where Bin ladin is as well by your post but I bet you haven't reported it to the proper authorities to receive your 10 million dollar reward, that makes you a terrorist sympathizer!! I sure as hell hope you don't think that's earning you any brownie points.

Muslims have been instructed by their religion to wipe out the infidel

I live right in the middle of one of the biggest Muslim communities in the UK. Every day I work with these people, talk to them, buy goods from them and share the same space in perfect peace and acceptance of each other's culture. I'm still alive, no one has tried to wipe me out yet, and I'm a Roman Catholic (which from your point of view probably means a member of the IRA).

I have written on this before. There is an absolute minority of the community where I live, that gather in the local park and express their hatred of the West, and the war in Iraq. They are not considered members or friends of the local Muslim community, the Muslims I speak to have the same opinion of these people as I do. They are anarchic cowards who hide behind the banner of Islam to convince stupid, ignorant people that terrorism is an expression of the Muslim faith. It appears to be working.

[Ghost]

I read plenty of books, I've served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and I watch the news on tv and I also read the news on the net (from multiple countries).
None of that changes the fact that America has only been around for several hundred years, yet Muslims have been instructed by their religion to wipe out the infidel for longer than the United states has existed so how the hell is that a by product of our foreign policy? It sounds more like its because were the "wrong" religion to me. Remember we didn't even EXIST when the instructions to wipe out the infidels were given so unless Muhammad had a time machine...

Muslims are not instructed to wipe out the infidel. This is madness, i personally think your post should be deleted and please dont think you will score any brownie points for serving in Iraq or Afganistan.

What would you do if you were invaded?
Probably what they are doing.

Now if that pissed you off look at it from their perspective. YOU invaded THEM. Why? They didnt do the terrorist attacks. Whats it got to do with Iraq or even afganistan? bin laden is Saudi and in Pakistan.
THe reality is America and the UK are the ones going around the world invading and bombing people for oil and power and if you stop for a minute you might see it. cos the rest of the world can see it. Thats why we are the most hated countries on earth, and we walk around thinking the russians and chinese were brain washed by their government. Well thats us.
Everyone outside can see it.

[TTEscrima]

Infidels are non believers, christians and jews are called people of the book.

That may be how kafir is translated but that isn't how it's used. I've personally found it painted on our gear after attacks. Osama has used it in several of his speeches targeting the USA as well. Soldiers wouldn't have made such a big deal of displaying infidel logos and T shirts and ball caps if we weren't being bashed over the head with it on a regular basis.

And of course Muslims haven't got a problem in the world with "people of the book" IE: Jews and Christians.They were waging war on both long before there was a USA, nice try though.