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  • Gun Control, Nuclear Proliferation, and Free Society

    A thread on gun control at another forum touched on the usual arguments ("Guns have only one purpose..." "If those parents had been more responsible, that little girl who shot herself would be alive today," etc.), plus the concept that the USA's interference with other nations' development of nuclear weapons constituted the failure to recognize their rights to arm themselves for self-defense. I wrote the following as a reply and thought I'd share it here:

    --------------------------------------------------------

    Guns have one purpose, and one purpose only: to launch projectiles at high speed in a direction away from the firearm.

    All tools -- firearms, hammers, kitchen knives, jacks, battery-operated "massagers," tire pressure gauges, toothpicks, fireplace pokers, electron microscopes, egg beaters, toasters, wrenches, "Salad Shooters," and Garden Weasels included -- can be misused. Inanimate objects possess neither volition nor intent; their presence or absence no more causes crime than the presence of my toaster forces me to make toast. Certainly my toaster facilitates the cooking of bread -- but in its absence, if I wished to make my bread warm, there are numerous ways to make this happen regardless of laws forbidding the consumption of toast.

    The government of a free society can and should make a good faith effort to protect its citizens before the fact -- but when those efforts infringe on individual natural rights, we no longer live in a free society. Residents must constantly ask themselves: what level of prior restraint are we willing to accept? At what point does treating all individuals as criminals who have not yet committed crime constitute a violation of individual rights in the name of such prior restraint?

    Advocates of firearms prohibition seek to create a world in which people who wish to do harm cannot do harm because they lack the physical means -- but this is impossible, and reality has quite clearly taught us that disarming the law-abiding merely empowers those who retain ill intent and do not care what laws they break. Even in a world where all firearms could be magically erased, human beings would be at the mercy of the most aggressive, the strongest, the most numerous -- and thus society's predators would have license to do as they wished, in the absence of the equalizers that make average citizens less attractive prey.

    Beware, in seeking to find meaning in the "gun control" debate, the fallacious thinking of inappropriate analogies. Nations are not individuals, and nuclear weapons are not tools of individual self-defense. If I choose to use my handgun against a mugger while others are within twenty feet but not in my direct line of fire, I am exercising my right to self-defense. If, however, I choose to to use my hand grenade to accomplish the same feat, I am both dangerously suicidal and a threat to all others in the vicinity -- and thus my action is not an issue of individual self-defense, but a political problem affecting all in the room.

    A single nuclear weapon is a not a knife clipped to the nation's metaphorical front pocket, nor a Glock in a shoulder holster; it is a lighted stick of dynamite thrown in the general direction of the enemy.

    A nuclear arsenal is not wood-grain glass-fronted case full of shotguns in metaphor; it is a butane lighter in a room whose occupants stand ankle-deep in kerosene.

    "Mutually Assured Destruction" -- the doctrine on which nuclear proliferation as "self-defense" on the national scale is based -- is not applicable to individual arms, which is what handheld weapons like firearms and knives happen to be. We do not buy handguns and then hold them to our neighbor's heads twenty-four hours a day while they hold their guns to our heads, each of us hoping no one will pull a trigger. It is not an applicable analogy.

    For those interested in more information on natural rights and from where our innate rights are derived, please see "Manifesto of the Mind: Natural Law, Rights, Property, and Government" here:


  • #2
    That was.....intresting. Have you ever seen "Bowling for Columbine"? i think that movie does a good job at the issue of why theres a gun "problem" in the U.S. opposed to other nations such as Canada (his opinion is "slightly" biased though...).

    heh i like how you said Guns have only one purpose "to launch projectiles at high speed in a direction away from the firearm"

    heh, let me guess your a gun owner?

    launching projectiles is not the purpose of a gun, its just describing the mechanical process that occurs when a gun fires. to find the purpose you have to look at WHY the trigger was pulled therefore WHY did the gun launch a projectile at high speeds away from itself.

    Guns were "ment" to kill things, preferably your nations "enemies".

    There purpose for being created is not very complicated, not open to debate, they were created to KILL and only to KILL sure you can hit targets...but thats just so you can be better at useing the gun to KILL a LIVING creature, wether its a deer, bird, or human.

    the reason guns exist was becuase some one figured out that gun powder can "shoot" a projectile with a better chance to KILL or MAME your enemy, then say a bow and arrow or a sword.

    a gun was made for the EXACT same reason the nuclear bomb was made to KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, and hopefull kill some more...(if your lucky ).

    But you say "wait theres a big difference between me owning a gun and my country having a nuke!".

    perhaps in policy and intent, but not in purpose. Nukes just have more KILL power thats why they are more "valuble" then guns.

    you say "hold on, but if i kill some one with my gun im only killing the guy whos trying to hurt me, no one else, theres no innocent by standers like with a nuke"

    tell that to all those small children who shoot each other because they dont understand what they are doing....arent they innocent?
    it doesn't matter if the gun owners INTENT was ONLY for HIS PERSONAL self defence, the gun being made to KILL and only to KILL did its job and KILLED something.

    you can talk of "missuse" of a gun, well really, if your "missuseing" a gun, your not killing shit with it....your "adapting" its purpose for less violent means, such as perhaps skeet shooting, or for some people hunting, oh wait, hunting is killing nevermind......

    i personaly think guns are cool, but i have no need to kill anything at the moment, so i dont own one.

    not everyone with a gun wants to kill people....."why shouldn't i have the right to defend myself", " being a woman, what better way to even the playing field".....(note: i have heard these statements used to defend guns use. they are totaly relavent).

    Well good for those people, better to kill then be ....hurt? robbed? afraid? .....good for those people

    now with all that "6 year old kid shoots sister" stuff, all of the "accidental" gun killings possibly, now this is just a guess, make up for about 2% of gun owners....(maybe more, it really doesn't matter how many).

    the word accidental is kind of funny there.....arent guns made to kill? how can getting killed by something MADE to kill be an accident? seems like common sense to me.

    most people may never kill anything with there gun.....that doesn't change the fact that, that very same gun was MADE TO KILL.
    not all people want to kill something, and its their right to "missuse" there firearm for shooting targets, or putting on display.

    Knifes are not the same as guns.....they are multi-purpose TOOLS, being sharp you can if YOU want, kill something.

    the reason North Korea wants a nuke is the same reason that a scared american wants a gun...FOR SELF DEFENCE!

    Gee somthing sounds wrong with that...your right it is stupid....why would the U.S.A want to get rid of a Comunist power? (if you dont know, please get an education...or buy a gun )

    North korea should have the right to "even the playing field" just as the United States does....."duh, but wait N. korea has commited thousands of horrible acts of genocide blah blah blah".

    well thats true, but your next door nieghbor who mutilated animals as a child, or perhaps rapes women, or has killed a man before...HAS THE RIGHT TO CARRY A GUN...now remember a gun is made to kill....it can kill many people....so can a nuke.

    hmm what does this mean? well it means EVERYONE should be able to defend themselves EVEN N. korea.....EVEN that funny kid who lives alone in a shack in the woods with an offensive tatoo on his forehead.....or does it?

    lets not live in a fantasy world were people beleave "guns dont kill people, you could use a knife to do the same job, or even your hands, a murderer is gunna kill with or without a gun"

    "most" americans grow up in a "gun culture" its amazing what people can justify isnt it?
    Last edited by Kingston; 01-16-2003, 11:45 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      my "biased" feelings on this are much much harsher....heh, funny though, i still think guns are cool, paintball kicks ass, those shoot-em-up games at the arcade are always my favourite, and i always wanted a bee bee gun, and im just a fun lovin Canadian

      Comment


      • #4
        Bowling for Columbine was out and out propaganda designed to evoke emotion powerful enough to over-ride logic.

        Guns, and men willing to use those guns, gave us the freedom to offer up that kind of tripe, too. Us being here, free, proud, and strong is what has kept Canada and Mexico safe from Europe and it's troubles as well as the Russo-Sino Axis which now controls North Korea (I would suggest you read Nemets...).

        So go have your fun Canuck. Just remember, some of your freedom was purchased with American blood, guns, and Nuclear Capability (because Russia, aka, the USSR, The Evil Empire, is just an Alaska away!).


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by taebot
          Bowling for Columbine was out and out propaganda designed to evoke emotion powerful enough to over-ride logic.
          heh, one mans opinion....

          Guns, and men willing to use those guns, gave us the freedom to offer up that kind of tripe, too. Us being here, free, proud, and strong is what has kept Canada and Mexico safe from Europe and its troubles.
          (have you ever read a textbook?) ok that last point was a joke
          Canada made a name for itself fighting "Europe's" problems....Canadas contribution greatly helped our campane for independance.

          WW2 Canada was willing to help the "world" yet it took america to be attacked on its own soil before they would help......"clap, clap clap"

          So go have your fun Canuck. Just remember, some of your freedom was purchased with American blood, guns, and Nuclear Capability (because Russia, aka, the USSR, The Evil Empire, is just an Alaska away!). [/B]
          Most of it was won on British blood....(canadians). Oh dont forget the indians blood, a whole lot of that.....most of the american blood that was spilled for Canada's freedom was when "ya'll" attacked us.....and "we" won.

          heh, i dont undermine the importance of having america as a nighbor....we hardly need any military, it helps for our free health care system....your our biggest trading partners...and we are yours (i dont care what bush says, it aint mexico).

          Dont foget that the majority of American blood that gets spilled is for america...not canada, youv overthrown legitamet governments for banana prophits.....choose wich governments to support based on there support of you....choose to ignore "detailes" about other governments (such as genocide) if doing something about it would cost america "to much".

          you can sit on your high horse all you want....truth is america's freedom was won on other peoples blood more then your own...

          just the truth....its hard sometimes "eh"

          Comment


          • #6
            What's the difference between a 'gun' that shoot's a paintball and a 'gun' that shoots x number of grains of conical lead?

            Under your definition, 'guns' serve only one purpose. To kill.

            Ok, so the paintball 'gun' is meant to kill?

            The staple 'gun' is meant to kill?

            The nail 'gun' is meant to kill?

            The glue 'gun' is meant to kill?

            Each 'gun' performs a very similar basic mechanical function. Should we ban them all?

            --------------------

            Guns are meant to kill, but knives are not? I'd be willing to bet that througought history, more people and other living creatures were killed with knives (and other sharpened edges) than have been killed with guns (of any and all kinds).

            So, when we add it up, which is more dangerous?

            --------------------------------

            Why do children die through the use/misuse of a gun? I'd say they die/suffer injury from guns the same way they die/suffer injury from toxic substances, water, automobiles, electricity, food, etc, etc... If you find that reason, post it so we can put a stop to all this needless death/injury.

            -------------------------------

            Being a member of this forum, I'll assume that you are 'into' martial arts of some sort?

            Can you explain to me the difference between killing someone with a gun, a sword, a knife, a chain, a rope, a bo staff, a jo staff, my fist, my foot, my knee, or my forearm in a choke?

            Comment


            • #7
              My my my, were do i start...*sigh*

              Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
              What's the difference between a 'gun' that shoot's a paintball and a 'gun' that shoots x number of grains of conical lead?

              Under your definition, 'guns' serve only one purpose. To kill.

              Ok, so the paintball 'gun' is meant to kill?

              The staple 'gun' is meant to kill?

              The nail 'gun' is meant to kill?

              The glue 'gun' is meant to kill?

              Each 'gun' performs a very similar basic mechanical function. Should we ban them all?
              your forgeting to think.....the word "gun" doesn't kill anyone.....a paintball gun was not ment to KILL sorry i cant understand why you think a nail gun or a glue gun falls under the same category as an M 16, or a hand gun.....what you said really isn't any type of argument....NO A NAIL GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT NAILS INTO THINGS (wood mostly, not humans) please dont insult everyone by posting that bull sh&t

              Also remember i never used the word "definition" i used the word PURPOSE, THE PURPOSE FOR A GUN IS TO KILL....i hope you realize im not talking about a glue gun....(did you vote for bush?)
              --------------------

              Guns are meant to kill, but knives are not? I'd be willing to bet that througought history, more people and other living creatures were killed with knives (and other sharpened edges) than have been killed with guns (of any and all kinds).
              lol have you ever seen the death counts of WW1 or WW2.... napoleon sent in 500,000 men to russia 40, 000 came back... in one battle he lost 100,000 ment (id bet mostly all of them were of gun powder using weapons, therefore guns)

              granted in Napoleons case alot died of starvation, cold.

              the world population was very small relativly before the 1900's
              do you know how many deaths it takes before its concidered a genocide? (i dont, but its alot lol). in the 20'th century in single battles enought people died to completly destroy some ancient civilizations....how many indians were here before the "white man came" hundreds of thousands....theres hardly any left....most were shot...."we" did a good job at killing the buffalo, and starving them to death...how did we kill the buffalo? GUNS...

              there are so many more examples it would take me hours to post it all...

              So, when we add it up, which is more dangerous?
              i would bet guns by about two times in numbers.... you obviously dont now how many people are being killed every day by guns....i wouldn't be suprised if the gun/knife ratio of deaths were 3 to one for guns. Its just common sense man.

              --------------------------------

              [QUTOE]Why do children die through the use/misuse of a gun? I'd say they die/suffer injury from guns the same way they die/suffer injury from toxic substances, water, automobiles, electricity, food, etc, etc... If you find that reason, post it so we can put a stop to all this needless death/injury.[/QUOTE]

              your making this to easy for me.
              the difference is that those chemicals MAIN USE, THE REASON THEY WERE MADE, was to clean shit, kill bugs..not humans....a death by those toxic chemicals is an UNWANTED "side effect". a hand gun is ment to kill, a small child that kills another child with a hand gun (dont be confused now, im not talking about a glue gun )
              is useing that gun fore its MAIN purpose, to KILL.

              they die in the same way as to the fact that those deaths were accidents. The reason those deaths happen, from cars, food etc. is because of human error....a car was not ment to kill, but if you drive it into some one at 40 miles per hour, your gunna kill someone... duh! a gun was made to kill, a car was made to take people from point A to point B

              -------------------------------

              Being a member of this forum, I'll assume that you are 'into' martial arts of some sort?
              boy i hope so...

              Can you explain to me the difference between killing someone with a gun, a sword, a knife, a chain, a rope, a bo staff, a jo staff, my fist, my foot, my knee, or my forearm in a choke?
              theres no difference in the ACT of killing, exept for maybe the technique used...i never said that the PHYSICAL PROCESS of taking a life matters, all that matters is that, that life was taken by someone who was trying to take it.

              a gun, sword, perhaps a bo staff or a jo staff (im not sure the intent of those last two for being created), were MENT to kill, a gun..ment to kill, a sword, ment to kill.

              a knife....well there are many different PURPOSES for a knife, some are ment for killing (though originaly for hunting animals not humans). ther are many many different uses for knifes, killing is just one of them.....

              your fists, help you to grasp things, not kill things....knees? they contain a hinge join wich allows us to walk the way we do.

              THE DIFFERENCE? Its not in the effect! But in the PURPOSE FOR EXISTING!
              Last edited by Kingston; 01-17-2003, 04:11 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Exactly! The purpose for existence is exactly my point in the last post.


                So I believe the jist of your argument is: Guns have a Primary Purpose to Kill. Period.


                However you stated that:

                'NO A NAIL GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT NAILS INTO THINGS'
                And thus I can safely assume that:

                'NO A GLUE GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT GLUE INTO THINGS'

                'NO A STAPLE GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT STAPLES INTO THINGS'

                Following that line:

                NO, A GUN IS NOT MEANT TO KILL, IT'S MEANT TO SHOOT BULLETS INTO THINGS.

                I do believe that is why they are all called 'guns'. The similarity is not in the result, but in the mechanism.

                So either guns are called guns because they have the same result or they have the same mechanism. Which do you believe to be the case?


                I have responses to your other points, but I think it better to address one at a time.

                Spanky

                P.S.

                '(did you vote for bush?)'

                I'd like to know how this factors into the purpose and usage of a gun?

                If you can't argue logic, or spell, or use grammar you bring on the ad hominem. If you want to insult each other we can just drop the pretense of a 'logical' argument altogether.

                Should I start making comments about women, Canadians, or socialistic forms of government that include high taxes and free* (yet somehow inadequate) socialized medicine??

                Or would you just rather stick to the argument at hand? Either way is fine with me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just a thought on North Korea and Nukes.

                  it was asked why can't north korea even the playing field and I have an answer for you.


                  A stronger country says they can't. In fact the world has said they can't.

                  it is that simple.

                  The are not saying North Korea may not try to even the field but they are saying that they should not.

                  Why, because they are viewed as a threat to others who are stronger.


                  If you are the strongest guy in the neighborhood and you don't want someone to do something you have two choices. One you can try and convince them to your way of thinking or you can beat them into submission.

                  North Korea has been handled diplomatically. They say don't do this and we all won't wipe you or your people off the map. If they were to ever attack anyone with a Nuke the country would be gone.



                  As far as guns go, they are dangerous true but they have their purpose. Freedom requires that the people who have that freedom must defend it. There have been free societies before that found that they were not able to maintain that freedom because of their inability to defend themselves.

                  enough of a rant for now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think a major difference in who has nuclear capability and who does not can be viewed like this:

                    The Western Nuclear powers such as the United Kingdom, France, and the United States have populations of citizens whom are not starved, gassed, or bombed by the government.

                    In the USSR, PRC, Iraq and Korea, citizens are immediately subject to direct control of and by the government.

                    Specifically, North Korea and Iraq have gone to war with their neighbors in the recent past using all manner of weaponry.

                    They are also suspected sponsors of terrorism. If these countries sell small arms, aircraft or missles to terrorists, what's to stop them from selling nuclear weapons?

                    Notice how most nations of the world, including the US take a low profile approach to other nations terrorist problems until it happens in their own back yard.

                    Neither the US nor Russia were actively seeking out and destroying terrorists on a grand scale until each respective nation was attacked.

                    Funny that.

                    Spanky

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
                      [B]Exactly! The purpose for existence is exactly my point in the last post.


                      So I believe the jist of your argument is: Guns have a Primary Purpose to Kill. Period.


                      However you stated that:



                      And thus I can safely assume that:

                      'NO A GLUE GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT GLUE INTO THINGS'

                      'NO A STAPLE GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT STAPLES INTO THINGS'

                      Following that line:

                      NO, A GUN IS NOT MEANT TO KILL, IT'S MEANT TO SHOOT BULLETS INTO THINGS.

                      I do believe that is why they are all called 'guns'. The similarity is not in the result, but in the mechanism.
                      accualy the mechanism used to fire a gun is completely different to that of a glue gun, and even a nail gun....there is no simularity in the mechanism, even if they were it wouldn't matter.

                      problem is, a gun IS ment to kill, HOW DOES IT KILL? by shooting bullets into things.....understand yet?

                      So either guns are called guns because they have the same result or they have the same mechanism. Which do you believe to be the case?
                      lol, or its just a name, all those things resemble each other...THATS why they have the same word in there name.
                      look to names of animals, they slightly resemble something, so, they share the same name as it, the reason for this is to help people "relate" to it. "whats that nail thingy?", "oh this? Its a nail gun". "Oh, so it shoots nails like a gun?". "yes".

                      So there are many more explanations to why its called a "gun" not just the two reasons you posted.

                      Note they are called guns becuase of SIMILAR result not same result or SIMILAR mechanism not same mechanism. Did that help?

                      dont get confused becuase two similar items share the same word.

                      a glue gun "shoots glue into things" thats what it does.....

                      a hand gun shoots bullets into things thats what it does....

                      a glue gun was made to glue things together...thats what its PURPOSE IS

                      a hand gun was made to kill people...thats what its PURPOSE IS.

                      yes the physical process of what happens when some one dies by a gun, or a gun is shot at a target, is, a bullet is shot into something.

                      just because you can describe two similar items in the same way, does not mean that they are the same thing.

                      i hope you know that a glue gun is completly different from a hand gun, in every way.....well they may look similar.

                      I have responses to your other points, but I think it better to address one at a time.
                      i look forward to it, but dont limit the posibilities, no one know everything...

                      P.S.

                      '(did you vote for bush?)'

                      I'd like to know how this factors into the purpose and usage of a gun?
                      it doesn't, just put it in as a joke.....relax and breath

                      If you can't argue logic, or spell, or use grammar you bring on the ad hominem. If you want to insult each other we can just drop the pretense of a 'logical' argument altogether.
                      did i insult "you"? i was speaking purley in general terms. i wasn't thinking of you by name or anything.

                      logic? i guess your the expert on that

                      i guess the secrets out of the bag, i have crappy grammar.....you heard it here first!

                      Should I start making comments about women, Canadians, or socialistic forms of government that include high taxes and free* (yet somehow inadequate) socialized medicine??
                      huh? this aint a pissing contest between the U.S. and Canada.

                      "should i start making comments about women..."

                      No, you shouldn't. Why are you asking me? Are you implying that i some how made similar coments? If so, please read my posts

                      Or would you just rather stick to the argument at hand? Either way is fine with me.
                      i thought i was......sorry.

                      you assume to much....
                      Last edited by Kingston; 01-17-2003, 05:36 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        'accualy the mechanism used to fire a gun is completely different to that of a glue gun, and even a nail gun....there is no simularity in the mechanism, even if they were it wouldn't matter.'

                        Actually, when you pull the trigger on the glue gun, glue comes out of the tube at the end through pressure exerted on the glue, no?

                        When you pull the trigger on a hand gun, the hammer hits the primer (in centerfire designs) causing an explosion in the cartridge that accelerates the projectile through a tube. Pressure is exerted on the bullet causing the bullet to come ouf of the tube.

                        Granted, this process is not identical, however I believe that they are 'similar' enough that this is the reason why the glue delivery apparatus (and others mentioned) are called 'guns'.



                        The glue gun glues things together? I thought you meant:

                        'NO A GLUE GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT GLUE INTO THINGS'

                        So if I set my glue gun next to my picture frame, leave, and come back ten minutes later the picture frame will be glued?

                        Or is it that the glue gun is the machine designed to deliver the glue based on the direction of the wielder?



                        Just to make sure I have my facts straight:

                        1) The primary purpose of a gun is to kill?

                        Or is it:

                        2) Well, the purpose of all 'guns' is not actually to kill, simply the ones that deliver high velocity projectiles?

                        Or is it:

                        3) Well, not all high velocity projectile 'guns' are meant to kill, because clearly paintball guns and nail guns are not meant to kill? So it must be all guns that deliver high velocity projectiles with a combustion based firing mechanism are meant to kill.

                        Or is it:

                        4) Well, obviously not all 'guns' that fire high velocity projectiles with the combustion based primer are meant to kill because then Flare Guns would be meant to kill.


                        And of course flare guns weren't meant to kill. They were meant to signal by delivering a projectile to a designated place at a specific time?

                        So if I'm wrong here, and guns are meant for the primary purpose of killing, why do we constantly label things as guns that were obviously never meant to kill?


                        Ryan,

                        You'll have to excuse my behavior, it would seem that I'm trapped in the mud....

                        Spanky

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz

                          Actually, when you pull the trigger on the glue gun, glue comes out of the tube at the end through pressure exerted on the glue, no?

                          When you pull the trigger on a hand gun, the hammer hits the primer (in centerfire designs) causing an explosion in the cartridge that accelerates the projectile through a tube. Pressure is exerted on the bullet causing the bullet to come ouf of the tube.

                          Granted, this process is not identical, however I believe that they are 'similar' enough that this is the reason why the glue delivery apparatus (and others mentioned) are called 'guns'.
                          that was kind of my point, just because they are similar enough to share i name does not mean that they are the same.


                          The glue gun glues things together? I thought you meant:

                          'NO A GLUE GUN IS NOT MENT TO KILL, ITS MENT TO SHOOT GLUE INTO THINGS'

                          So if I set my glue gun next to my picture frame, leave, and come back ten minutes later the picture frame will be glued?
                          huh? i never implied that. Just because a machine was ment to do something doesn't mean that it can do it without direction (a person to pull the trigger or push the button)

                          Or is it that the glue gun is the machine designed to deliver the glue based on the direction of the wielder?
                          your right. Whats your point?



                          Just to make sure I have my facts straight:

                          1) The primary purpose of a gun is to kill?

                          Or is it:

                          2) Well, the purpose of all 'guns' is not actually to kill, simply the ones that deliver high velocity projectiles?

                          Or is it:

                          3) Well, not all high velocity projectile 'guns' are meant to kill, because clearly paintball guns and nail guns are not meant to kill? So it must be all guns that deliver high velocity projectiles with a combustion based firing mechanism are meant to kill.
                          i never said paintball guns were ment to kill....i think your getting ahead of yourself.....

                          4) Well, obviously not all 'guns' that fire high velocity projectiles with the combustion based primer are meant to kill because then Flare Guns would be meant to kill.
                          you do understand that im not talking about flare "guns" when i say guns are made to kill......


                          And of course flare guns weren't meant to kill. They were meant to signal by delivering a projectile to a designated place at a specific time?

                          So if I'm wrong here, and guns are meant for the primary purpose of killing, why do we constantly label things as guns that were obviously never meant to kill?
                          The word "gun" is not something that can be defined as "an object meant to kill"

                          you can put the word "gun" next to something and, as long as it resembles a "real" gun it doesn't matter.

                          you seem to be in the thinking that "if guns are ment to kill, why are things with the word Gun in them not ment to kill?"

                          you know what type of "guns" im talking about when i say guns are ment to kill.....dont start getting scared that your kid holding a piece of wood with the writing "toy gun" on the side means that that wood now holds killing power

                          and dont make the point that "well if all guns are ment to kill why doesn't my sons toy gun kill things? huh?"

                          well even if that toy gun fires little plastic balls in the direction away from the gun, does not mean that it should be confused with the type of "guns" that i am talking about.

                          The ORIGINAL INTENT FOR GUNS BEING PLACED ON THIS EARTH was to kill, you can modify, redo, change, tweek, whatever you want to call it, to that original blue print of that killing machine. It wont change the fact that guns were made to kill. Not Toy guns, not water guns, not nail guns. "Real" guns, guns that hold true to the original creatores intent for a better killing weapon.

                          You'll have to excuse my behavior, it would seem that I'm trapped in the mud....
                          ..............yup.

                          it seems the word "gun" distracts you from what we are accualy talking about....you can argue, "well a nial gun was not made to kill so guns therefore are not made to kill".....no a "nail gun" was not ment to kill "GUNS" on the other hand were ment to kill.......i hope you understand what i mean by the word "gun". im not talking about "guns" offspring(such as paintball guns, or flare guns), or machines influenced by guns....

                          Ok?

                          Good.
                          Last edited by Kingston; 01-17-2003, 08:10 PM.

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                          • #14
                            perhaps using the term firearm would help this conversation.

                            But after reading it, and the resulting loss of brain cells I am not sure.

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                            • #15
                              sounds like a good idea. this thread was interesting until the glue guns

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