Moral Philosophy

[Crouchtig]

i get annoyed when i know im cleverer than someone and they know it too but they still dont believe me when i tell them what they should believe

i once said "if i found someone cleverer than me who said: i know more than you and i can say that god does exist then i would seriously consider giving up atheism"

from the fact that i cant understand your posts i am led to believe that you are cleverer/know more about the subject than me

so tell me what i should believe

and i am being serious

(my most extreme "flip flop" yet)

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Crouchtig,
Buddy, no one can or should tell you what to believe. You've got to find out what to believe for yourself. Otherwise you're simply following someone else again.

What's important is what you DO and what your motivations are. So in that sense it's important to follow ethics for the sake of just being decent. But I'm sure you already do that anyway.

As I mentioned before, my advice to you is still this: Study! Go out and learn what you can about ethics, philosophy, religion, etc. These three things have been the most central part of the human being since the beginning of thought and the written word. Good knowledge is out there, make it self-knowledge. Find out why you think certain things, and try to see if they stand up to reasonable doubt. Think of what you think "ought to be" and see who else agrees with you, disagrees, etc.
Knowledge is hard work. No one can give it to you, it's up to you to discover it for yourself. Kind of like eating. I can tell you the "truths" about eating, and explain what's healthier to eat, etc. But you'll never fully understand the importance of food, or experience the taste until you eat for yourself. And maybe you'll find a food you like that I've skipped over, etc.

So don't ask someone what you should believe. Ask people for their help, experience, and advice in order to guide you to better ways of looking at things, but don't take what they say at face value. Make sure it rings true. Use reason, thought, intellect, feelings, etc.
While I believe in objective truth, I still believe that each of us have personal, individual, and special ways of understanding and reaching it.

Take care, and have fun. And take those college courses.

Ryu

[cyrijl]

my argument to an athiest is:

Something does not come from nothing.
All things which are (being) and become (becoming) must exist within time. Time and space are inseparable for time must move within space and without time no movement across space is possible. Time must exist within something which began all of creation. This is God, how you dress 'em up is up to you. But to deny that there was a force which created time and space is both illogical and unscientific.

As far as religion, it is all bullshit from animism to sikhism. If you look at the general trend in going from an uncivilized disordered society into a order modern society all religions take the same trend.

animism---animal worship---deity (w/some animal)---diety---and the some human which is the divine representation. There is a bringing closer of god into the human realm and removing him from nature. This helps man realize his separation from nature and his dominion over it. The only thing which i don't think has a clear placement is ancestor worship. This is because most ancestor worship does not place the deceased into a clearly divine role but more as intercessors on the persons behalf.

[eXcessiveForce]

it's been awhile since I spoke with someone who truely was an atheist. But I just remember something I heard and have always thought about. I may not say it correctly and i'm not sure who said it anymore. It's been several years since I learned it but here it goes.

on the existence of God.


If you believe in the existence of god and there is no God you lose nothing.
If you choose not to believe and there is a god and hell is real you lose everything.
If you choose to believe and you are right you gain everything.



Actually I was going to get my degree in philosophy but the classes didn't fit with my schedule at that school so instead I got to B.A.s a that school one in liberal studies (mostly philosphy classes and theology classes) and a degree in psychology. Believe it or not both have come in handier than would have been expected.



oh just some info.

Biology has the law of biogenisis. (Life comes from life. Life cannot come from nonlife)

Physics has the third law of thermodynamics (energy systems progress from order to chaos not the other way around)

Psychology it has been found that people who do not have a belief in something greater than themselves often suffer from depression and at a high risk of suicide than those who do.

If the big bang did happen what created the material to cause the big bang. Could you call that force God?

If evolution is true could it be that that is the vehicle god created civilization with?

There are no references to time frames in the bible because they did not have a concept of a billion or even a million. there was no need to have such a concept.

Religion is all different. Many have radically different beliefs. you cannot lump them all together. Islamic vs. christian. vs. hindu. vs. buddist. they all have difference and some are very pronounced.



Seek out truth, not the dogma of others. Everyone has beliefs and you can ask them what their beliefs are, but you must make the decision if those beliefs will work for you.


I am a christian, I believe there is value to the lessons taught in the bible. I uses the first quote as a guide. Three major religions out of the 5 believe in the same God but different messangers. those being Islam, Jewish, and christianity. I also love philosopy and science and to date I have never found any proof against there being a God, So if I believe there is one and I'm right I gain everything. If i'm wrong I loose nothing.


I do not try to force my religious views on others, nor do I hide them.


I do not think you should blindly follow anyone simply because they are more clever than you. There are many many people who are more clever than you. That does not make them right.
Find your own answers but always keep your mind open. Once you close your mind to new possibilities you stop growing.

[terry]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)
Because Martial artists have no business discussing matters other than fighting, right? It's not like they could possibly have other knowledge in the fields of philosophy, sociology, psychology, or science.

Ryu

Hmmm...make an inference not implied by the original argument, and then attack that inference as an absurdity. This illustrates my original point. I learn more when there is less chest pounding and more complete logic.

Terry

Since this thread appears to have little to do with mixed martial arts perhaps we should move it to the open access forum?

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Originally posted by terry


Hmmm...make an inference not implied by the original argument, and then attack that inference as an absurdity. This illustrates my original point. I learn more when there is less chest pounding and more complete logic.

Terry

Since this thread appears to have little to do with mixed martial arts perhaps we should move it to the open access forum?

Not implied? Your direct words were "A group of martial artists discussing moral philosophy is a bit like a group of physicists discussing psychology. It is an interesting, occasionally melodramatic, discussion that does not persuade. "

How condescending (and inaccurate) can you get?

Ryu

[Crouchtig]

learn more about philosophy, ethics and religeon

very well

"my argument to an athiest is:

Something does not come from nothing.
All things which are (being) and become (becoming) must exist within time. Time and space are inseparable for time must move within space and without time no movement across space is possible. Time must exist within something which began all of creation. This is God, how you dress 'em up is up to you. But to deny that there was a force which created time and space is both illogical and unscientific."

i must be improving: i understood that! or i think i did...

i believe that nothing is real (including myself). nothing could have come from nothing and since there must have been nothing at the begining: there is nothing now.

its just more fun to pretend that i do exist

"If you believe in the existence of god and there is no God you lose nothing.
If you choose not to believe and there is a god and hell is real you lose everything.
If you choose to believe and you are right you gain everything."

i wish i had that choice but i just cant believe in god

my mind is too logical. no god for me

[eXcessiveForce]

I don't know about logic,


your arguments show a lack of logic and judgment to this point.


Aristotle, Einstein, Newton all believed that god existed. Aristotle even came up with a proof for the existence of God.

I doubt that you or anybody on this board really could stand with them when it comes to logic or intelligence.


Harvard school of business did statistical analysis of the possibility that the earth was able to be created without the existence of god. The number came out at 1 out of a 1with over a million zeros behind it. Basically that it was a near impossibility, the idea that it could happen on more than one planet was much much lower.

[Crouchtig]

oh yeah well ive just done my own statistical bollox

and

the probability of god existing is one in one with a quizzillion zeros after it

by this i am trying to make the point "i dont care that some wanker did a crappy statistal thing and proved that god must exist. if he was here right now i would slap him." if he walked int othe room now i would have to hit him

but im hoping it wont come to that

nope no sign of him...

"oooo im aristotal im so stupid" words attributed to aristotal (by me)

[ryanhall]

Aristotle would beat you until you begged for mercy

[Crouchtig]

a definition of wisdom: something that cannot be argued with

lets put it to the test

"he who controls the past conqures the futre"
argument: "thats stupid"

"know your enemy and you will be victorious"
argument: "what if he is too powerfull to be defeated"

"the universe should not exist"
argument: "your right"
WISE

[ryanhall]

This troll's on a tear. First he tells the forum owner that he is a small-minded imbecile, and now one of the most intellgient humans to ever walk the face of the planet is a wanker. All this before puberty. Destined for greatness, I can tell already.

Crouchtig,
I'm gonna remember to call you the next time I want to get rid of some Jehova's witnesses.

[eXcessiveForce]

Okay, I tire of wasting my time on a child with an ego too large for his intellect and abilities to justify.

Let's back track.


Try learning something and thinking about it before you post your mindless notions so that we do not have to keep correcting you and showing how uninformed you are about life.

If the universe does not exist then there is no point to life. If that is your contention end yours quickly so that you waste no more of our imaginary oxygen.

[ryanhall]

One last point before this is over:

Crouchtig wrote:

a definition of wisdom: something that cannot be argued with

The REAL definition of wisdom (not 'A' definition, THE definition--according to Webster):

wisdom- n. 1. Understanding of what is true, right, or lasting; insight: "One cannot have wisdom without living life"--Dorothy McCall. 2. a. The sum of scholarly learning through the ages; knowledge. b. Wise teachings of ancient sages.

Do you consider Aristotle an ancient sage?
Have you lived life for an extended period of time outside of your parents' home?
How wise are you now?

[terry]

Re: Rational (a priori) arguments for the existence of God. Mentioned in this thread were arguments approximating the cosmological, ontological and teleological arguments, arguments posed by theologians themselves regarding the existence of God. There has been a lot of ink shed over these issues over the last millenium. See Aquinas for a pro-religion perspective. See also David Hume's "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" for a skeptical perspective. There is some nice writing in all this literature, but it nets out that:

A) a priori reasoning doesn't establish the EXISTENCE of God if you DON'T believe in the first place.
B) a priori reasining doesn't establish the NON-EXISTENCE of God if you DO believe in the first place.

So, you're no better off than when you started.

I don't really want to go there on the ethics stuff because I know I would wind up talking about John Stuart Mill and Immanuel Kant. Um, Mill is fine, but Crouchtig needs to stay away from the convoluted sentence structures found in Kant, Hegel, et al. He needs exposure to declarative sentences. Simple. Straightforward. To the point. Perhaps Hemingway?

Terry