MARTIAL ARTS MYTHS & LEGENDS: Help solve a mystery!!

[Rhy]

Since I can't find a topic forum for this, I figure I'd come here instead.

I'd like to ask all the traditional & maybe SOME of the non-traditional martial arts experts out there to finally help solve this mystery:

There have been many myths & legends relating to martial arts that still are lingering in some people's minds. Mainly cuz they never got told other wise.
I've managed to resolve a lot of martial arts myths in my time spent in Karate. But one such legend/myth still remains...

The so-called legend I've heard holds that there are a few people in this world who are superb experts in fighting in certain situations and/or terrains that you & I would find awkward (ie- deep snow, while balancing on a narrow plank, in loose sand, underwater, while hanging from a rope high above the ground, etc)... You know, situations that the average fighter would not consider advantageous to fight in. That put the fighter in awkward positions & such.

And that these people practice certain obscure martial arts that are not widely known or taught, that are terrain/situationally specific. That are are confined only to a certain indigenous tribe or special group or whatever.
These martial arts are so perfect for their intended terrain that where we would be a bumbling fool to fight in such environments, the practitioner of such martial arts would easily prevail.


So far the closest thing to a possible answer to this mystery that I've managed to find is that someone said to me that there probably aren't any such martial arts...that those expert fighters of each terrain are simply ordinary fighters who had trained in THAT situation/environment & thus became good at it....That anyone can do the same if they just trained in any of THOSE situation/environments.

Well, I almost would say "mystery solved", but the problem is that I tried that training practice and all that yielded from that was that I could fight a little better--on like suppose, loose sand--but NOT easily & not nearly as superbly/expertly as the legend describes these specialized people can do.

I've never actually met a person who was THAT expert in fighting on certain terrains/situation...but I've heard of them both in real life & in fiction.
Navy SEALS are the only ones I know of (that EXIST) that are expert in underwater fighting. Hockey players are the only ones I know of that would be expert fighters on the slick ice. As for loose sand, I only know of certain Middle Eastern guerillas being expert in fighting on that terrain.

[RobertG]

Re: MARTIAL ARTS MYTHS & LEGENDS: Help solve a mystery!!

Originally posted by Rhy
Since I can't find a topic forum for this, I figure I'd come here instead.

I'd like to ask all the traditional & maybe SOME of the non-traditional martial arts experts out there to finally help solve this mystery:

There have been many myths & legends relating to martial arts that still are lingering in some people's minds. Mainly cuz they never got told other wise.
I've managed to resolve a lot of martial arts myths in my time spent in Karate. But one such legend/myth still remains...

The so-called legend I've heard holds that there are a few people in this world who are superb experts in fighting in certain situations and/or terrains that you & I would find awkward (ie- deep snow, while balancing on a narrow plank, in loose sand, underwater, while hanging from a rope high above the ground, etc)... You know, situations that the average fighter would not consider advantageous to fight in. That put the fighter in awkward positions & such.

And that these people practice certain obscure martial arts that are not widely known or taught, that are terrain/situationally specific. That are are confined only to a certain indigenous tribe or special group or whatever.
These martial arts are so perfect for their intended terrain that where we would be a bumbling fool to fight in such environments, the practitioner of such martial arts would easily prevail.


So far the closest thing to a possible answer to this mystery that I've managed to find is that someone said to me that there probably aren't any such martial arts...that those expert fighters of each terrain are simply ordinary fighters who had trained in THAT situation/environment & thus became good at it....That anyone can do the same if they just trained in any of THOSE situation/environments.

Well, I almost would say "mystery solved", but the problem is that I tried that training practice and all that yielded from that was that I could fight a little better--on like suppose, loose sand--but NOT easily & not nearly as superbly/expertly as the legend describes these specialized people can do.

I've never actually met a person who was THAT expert in fighting on certain terrains/situation...but I've heard of them both in real life & in fiction.
Navy SEALS are the only ones I know of (that EXIST) that are expert in underwater fighting. Hockey players are the only ones I know of that would be expert fighters on the slick ice. As for loose sand, I only know of certain Middle Eastern guerillas being expert in fighting on that terrain.

Myths are usually myths for a reason--they aren't true, although they may contain a grain of truth, though long obscured. You sort of have to use common sense. First, NAVY SEALS are do not fight underwater. Have you actually tried to punch and kick under the water? If they have to fight under the water they use projectile weapons--no one does hand to hand under water, especially with scuba gear on.

People don't fight hand to hand or even with weapons in deep snow. Again, use some common sense. Have you ever been in deep snow? You've got to wear heavy clothes, skis and whatnot. Not to mention that where there is deep snow it is generally freezing and the last thing you want is to hit the snow and grapple with someone. Again, people who are forced to fight in deep snow use projectile weapons (that is, GUNS).

Desert sand--once again, lets use common sense. Have you walked across sand dunes before? So you're sinking into the sand up to your ankles, you've got the sand in your eyes, mouth, nose, everywhere else and its 120 degrees. Anyone would be insane to try and start something in the sand. There is no point in practicing for such an eventuality because it doesn't happen. People do not fight on sand unless they're driving an all-terrain vehicle with a machine gun mounted on it.

Fighting on a plank or hanging from a rope high above the ground??? When does that ever happen? Oh, thats right, NEVER. I imagine some arts might have exercises involving doing things on planks, but that is simply for balance. There simply aren't enough planks or ropes suspended above the ground anywhere in the world for such skills to be worth the effort of any martial artist, no matter how eccentric they might be.

Now, for the grain of truth in the myth. Many martial arts evolved in regions where terrain was important. Southeast Asia comes to mind immediately. A lot of the Silat styles developed in marshy, swampy regions and reflect the realities of combat on such terrain. So yeah, there's guys that are experts in fighting in mud or rice paddies or somesuch. Now if you survey where martial arts have developed, they have not developed in regions of deep snow, they have not developed in sand dunes (even people who live in the desert minimize time spent in the dunes), they have not developed underwater, nor on ice. And since very few, if any, humans have ever adopted an arboreal lifestyle (there are a few tribes in New Guinea that live in trees apparently to avoid headhunting tribes...), no martial arts have ever evolved on planks or ropes because no one spends much time on them.

And lets clear up some other notions...no, people do not have special martial arts for caves, nor hot springs, nor while rockclimbing, nor for wrestling wild animals, nor while parachuting...

[Lizard]

But what about the future?

Fighting in zero gravity in confined spaces (flying grappling)

Personal force fields that prevent ranged attacks like in the "dune" books (slow attack, fast defence)

Geneticaly engineered people with improved speed and strength (might end up looking like pro wrestling)

Weapons contained within the human body (even "unarmed" people would have many modern weapons at their disposal)

Advances in medical technology that allow people to be brought back to life (killing people in a fight would be considered perfectly normal, no bother with submissions)

Changes to the human body (more arms etc. interesting combo possibilities)

[darrianation]

Why in the hell would you only want to train in one environment? You should train to fight in many environments especially the ones you’re most likely to find your self in a self-defense situation. If you expect to do a lot of fighting in the sand then it’s good to train there but you shouldn't just train for one environment because the next bar you step into can be your next battle ground.

Myths are myths! Stop perpetuating them. It doesn’t take a lot of common sense to figurer it out.

[Rhy]

Then are (most of) you saying that all that stuff in fiction was generally not based on anything real?

I first heard of this legend by word of mouth, over & over, being whispered & chatted about. But also, I often would see this legend themed in movies or stories or fighting related shows.

I've even gone as far as presently researching the Baja people & some Polynesian tribes to find any martial art that they might've practiced that were specific to the water. So far I'm coming up with zilch. I'm also trying to research underground hockey circles to see if I can find any experts in fighting on the slippery ice.

But now that I've read your posts, can I trust you to say that I should just end my search?

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Rhy
Then are (most of) you saying that all that stuff in fiction was generally not based on anything real?

I first heard of this legend by word of mouth, over & over, being whispered & chatted about. But also, I often would see this legend themed in movies or stories or fighting related shows.

I've even gone as far as presently researching the Baja people & some Polynesian tribes to find any martial art that they might've practiced that were specific to the water. So far I'm coming up with zilch. I'm also trying to research underground hockey circles to see if I can find any experts in fighting on the slippery ice.

But now that I've read your posts, can I trust you to say that I should just end my search?

LMFAO You're a funny guy Rhy. Have you considered a career in comedy writing?

Polynesians practicing a water specific art...that's good stuff there. Not quite as good as the ninjas hanging from ropes suspending above the ground stuff, but still good.

Ummm, you don't have to research anything to see experts in ice fighting. Watch a NHL game. There you go. Great skaters with big sticks and wicked body slams.

Oh, the Polynesians, btw, did do a fair bit of fighting. I think they used really nasty hardwood clubs and cracked your skull open with it. And spears too. They generally liked to wait until they got onto dry land before fighting. I mean if you start fighting in the water, people are going to bleed, blood is going to attract sharks, and then you are going to need a guy who trains to fight sharks underwater. I don't suspect there are very many of them because you generally die practicing underwater grappling with sharks.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Pentjak Silat styles from Indonesia are like what you mentioned, the styles with low stances are found in slippery areas near the coast, the more upright predominantly in the mountain areas
If you're not planning to travel then why train for anything else, it would be a waist of time,
Most people in Indonesia will not even come across a boxer or any other Martial Artist so why train for that anyway
It is mainly in the Western countries where you will find the variation, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, western style, thai, you name it and you can find it in most western countries
You do not find a lot of japanese styles in India and vice versa
not a lot of TKD in Japan and Pentjak Silat in China
In the west you can't do anything else but train against all but asia there is no need so it isn't part of the curriculum, hence we considder them flaud in the west

[Rhy]

ATTENTION "Robert G":

I'm not too familiar with this website because I'm new... But common sense tells me that your rude sarcasm is utterly unnecessary.

You can reply to people's posts objectively & informatively or don't reply at all.

[fullcircle]

Seals don't learn to fight underwater.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Rhy
ATTENTION "Robert G":

I'm not too familiar with this website because I'm new... But common sense tells me that your rude sarcasm is utterly unnecessary.

You can reply to people's posts objectively & informatively or don't reply at all.

The sarcasm is because you followed a ridiculous post with an absurd post.

Where exactly do guys sit around whispering about underwater fighting? I mean I've been known to be credulous myself, so I can't totally blame you. For about 3 or 4 days I was obsessed with Hojojitsu--that would be the Japanese art of binding people with ropes. I researched in vain to figure out how exactly samurai's managed to elaborately tie up resisting people. I finally had to accept that there was nothing miraculous about it...like modern day cops, samurai probably dog pilled on their victim and someone held a sword to the guy's throat while someone else tied them up. No magic, no secret techniques...

Of course, some places in Japan still teach Hojojitsu, its a real art (though I think its practioners are more interested in Japanese fetish videos now, but I digress....). No one teaches underwater, hanging from ropes, fighting in snow storm martial arts. They don't exist.

I mean you come on here and post about people fighting from ropes hanging high from the ground. And then you expect people to take you seriously. Need I point out again that there are not a lot of ropes hanging above the ground anywhere in the world? And are you going to hold onto the rope with one arm while flailing your sword at the other guy? Why don't you both go onto the ground and fight? And then you come back with this nonsense about underground ice skating fighting. You've been watching too much South Park...Brian Boitano does not actually fight evil and kick ass. And this obsession with water fighting...what is up with that?? You cannot walk on water, and humans do not have the agility of sea lions or dolphins underwater, hence they cannot fight underwater.

So either you are about 6 or 7, and then your absurd ideas are fine (and in which case I'd direct you to http://www.realultimatepower.net/, a website more appropriate to you....), you have taken way too many drugs (I've taken my share and I still know that people don't fight hanging from ropes or underwater....), or you are hanging out with some very strange people. I mean never, ever, ever have I ever heard anyone down at the gym talk, nor whisper, about the sorts of martial arts specialities you talk about here.

To clear up some other misconceptions you might have--no you cannot project your chi across the room and knock out people. No, you cannot use your dim mak on them and make them drop dead with the touch of your finger tip. There are no ninjas, and even if there were, they don't wear black pajamas.

If you want to know the truth why don't you pick up some books and do some research?? There is authentic, reliable martial arts research out there. And there is nothing fantastic about, nothing magical, and nothing absurd. And if you don't like me flaming you, then don't post ridiculous threads. Duh.

[Lizard]

There were ninjas and I'm pretty sure they did wear black pajamas.

Did you know that the word "pajama" is from india? I think it is from Hindi.

When the brittish went to india they found that the indians were much cleaner them them and had superior washing habits, many words such as "shampoo" and "pajamas" were adopted by the british because the british had no words of their own to describe them.

Well this is the open access forum.

What would Brian Boitano do if he were here right now?
He'd use his magical fire breath to save the human race again!

[Battery]

I don't suspect there are very many of them because you generally die practicing underwater grappling with sharks.

Dude, speak for yourself.

[Ghost]

I think this comes from doing Karate. No offence Karate people but i know alot of Karate who think the same.

Lots of wierd stuff like that revolving around the Japanese arts.

[Rhy]

Rob-G:

I think you are one of those jaded non-classical, "modern" martial artist. This is precisely the reason why I ask that traditionalists check out my post.

Rob, don't go making up notions that I DIDN'T write. Those were YOUR own implications.

You don't know where I'm coming from this topic. This legend is NOT my legend. Its an accumulation of rumors, myths, whispers, stories, etc, that I've heard regarding the topic.

As an independent filmmaker, altho I write fictional screenplays, I also try to find out the REAL truth of things....like what I'm doing now....finding out. But YOU don't seem to have any real facts to offer. Just jaded trash talking.

UPDATE:
I DID find some martial arts instructors that deal in the water environment. They don't really teach a MA style that's entirely meant for the water, but they do teach STRATEGIES & Tactics to use when one is in the water...to gain an advantage in light of the unfamiliar & restrictive properties of being in the water.

I've also found through some sources, that Free-Fall combat strategies/tactics are taught to some NASA astronauts & certain special forces members.

So...so far I've found that such terrain-specific training DOES exists, but no evidence of any actual complete martial art system that is entirely just for its own given terrain/situation.

To completely solve this mystery, I still have to find out exactly where & how the legend came about in the first place...and what its based upon.


I'm pretty sure there was a time in everyone's life BEFORE you even heard of what the martial arts were. Remember just discovering it & hearing stories of men who fight like demons? Of men who possess the "death touch"? Then you took martial arts, and then after awhile, some of those myths became clearer to you. Remember?? Well, I'm basically revisiting any lingering martial arts myths & trying to find the real truth. Over the years I've done this already. Just one more remains...its this one.


Be humble, everyone! Remember the time BEFORE you even heard of martial arts! Be meek.

[sanjiyan99]

Best desert fighters? Don't bet against the Israelis!

Here's a legend of a story for you:

Long ago, during the time of the Shang Dynasty, there lived a man who fought countless battles on the field of war. He spilled much blood, and this brought an incredible amount of grief to his conscience. Wanting to end the war raging within his soul and put an end to the endless nightmare of bloodshed, he abandoned his post one night, and sought refuge in a temple. His new band of brothers accepted him, and he taught them the art of war as a means of exercise and self-defense. His new position brought him solace and the peace he desperately longed for.

One day a fighter from a faraway land came to the temple to find rest from his long journey. He was welcomed inside, and they set food before him to eat, and gave him a place to sleep. The following morning he saw the monks being taught the form of combat. Considering their hospitality to him, he struggled to stifle the laughter welling up inside of him. Then, no longer able to restrain himself, he let out a full bellowed laugh. The monks continued, oblivious to his hearty cry. The former soldier who was leading the monks stopped, and said after him, "Why do you stand there and laugh at us? Have some respect for we gave you food and lodging!"

"Respect?", said the traveler. "Have some respect for the art you are teaching! Your subjects are merely hitting the air!" With that, he did a crude imitation of the form they were practicing, mocking the teacher.

The teacher became angry, and shouted back, "If you know something, then come here and show me!"

With that, the two men squared off against one another in combat. The other monks stopped their practice and gathered to watch the two engage the other in battle. The sifu got into his stance, knees bent low, arms outstretched in fists, upper body bending forward. The traveler simply raised one knee on the forward foot, his heel raised upward, the toes pointing towards the ground. His back foot was firmly planted, and he raised his arms to shield his face.

The fight began, and immediately, the traveler began throwing combinations at the monk, using punches, kicks, knees, and elbows when up close. The monk was able to deflect one or two strikes, but the traveler kept mixing it up to create openings for a direct hit. In less than twenty seconds, the traveler had landed several solid strikes to the monk's face, ribs, and stomach area. Finally, a powerful kick to the back of the monk's head laid him low.

As soon as it had begun, the fight was over. The traveler helped the monk to get up, and bloodied as he was, he struggled to stand. Through broken teeth and bated breath, the monk asked the traveler, "From where do you come?"

"Siam," said the traveler.