Flag Burning

[Garland]

I'm doing a paper for my English class in which I have to cover the topic of flag burning, I know many of you are or were involved in military service or law enforcement (which is why I'm putting this here instead of the open forum), and I know many of you have varying opinions on this topic, so, I would really like to hear what you guys have to say.
I will reference back to this when writing my paper, and all of your feedback would be greatly beneficial to me, and I would absolutely love to hear your opinions.

-Thanks,
G.

[eXcessiveForce]

while not military myself.

I agree with Mike on this.

Our miltary people are fighting to protect our freedoms. While we may not agree with burning the flag we must still remember that their sacrific is what gave these people the right and ability to do it. Unfortunately many of those people that actually do acts like burning the flag very rarely understand what price was paid for that freedom.

[cam427]

Garland,

I'm with Mike on this one. I agree that people should have the right to protest. In fact I dont think they do it enough (protesting does not have to be walking around with signs) which is why the noisy minorities seem to make all of the decisions.

That said, I do not like the idea of someone burning my flag.

Although I have no desire to pledge allegiance to it (this seems to be an American thing) anyone who tried to burn an Australian or New Zealand flag near me would regret the decision.

At the end of the day it may be just a peice of cloth but it represents all of the past struggles that made the country what it is. Mike's examples of famous people mean less to me than the struggles of ordinary people like my Grandfather and his brothers fighting the Japanese in the Pacific or my friends who fought in Vietnam.

Cam

[BoarSpear]

You may have the right to burn the flag, but i reserve the right to kick your ass for it...call it sign language...since my voice will no doubt fail me at that moment i will have to use my hands to communicate my displeasure.

However...oh no BoarSpears gonna bitch! You can still salute the flag in public, you just cant drag God into it. The church and state should be separated, the founders didnt add "under god," christian politicians did...

Im also not so sure that my first choice of American heroes would have been King and Parks...Many a good man has come home in a box, or in pieces for defending that flag and the Freedoms it stood for. Simply yelling about your rights is hardly the same as participating in wholesale slaughter to insure them...
If those men hadnt died for the protesters rights, they wouldnt have any, lets not forget who the real heroes are.

[cam427]

On Boarspears point,

This is one thing that really gets me going. I STRONGLY support the seperation of church and state. It was (many Americans are unaware of this) one of the cornerstones of the creation of the American way of life. Many of your "founding fathers" had absolutely nothing positive to say about religion and America was founded by people trying to escape religious persecution from crazy fundamentalists like Bush who once stated that he didn't believe atheists should be allowed to be citizens .

This is one of the reasons that you are allowed to bear arms so that you could protect yourself from your Government if it became necessary.

Sorry for getting off topic
Cam

[BoarSpear]

On Boarspears point,

This is one thing that really gets me going. I STRONGLY support the seperation of church and state. It was (many Americans are unaware of this) one of the cornerstones of the creation of the American way of life. Many of your "founding fathers" had absolutely nothing positive to say about religion and America was founded by people trying to escape religious persecution from crazy fundamentalists like Bush who once stated that he didn't believe atheists should be allowed to be citizens .

This is one of the reasons that you are allowed to bear arms so that you could protect yourself from your Government if it became necessary.

Sorry for getting off topic
Cam

Off topic? Dude that was dead on topic and 100% correct...you cant separate the item that symbolizes your country from the actions of its citizens and leaders.

The largest problem Americans face today is the people who have run off with our country while proclaiming to be its saviors

When people see the flag, they remember our actions, and the policys of our leaders of past and present.

50 years ago people listened with interest and hope when America and its leaders spoke. Today people raise thier fist and roll their eyes, assuming they can understand what the hell our president just said.

Those people are speaking out against the America of TODAY, not the one of 50 or 100 years ago.

With every step away from freedom of speech (free speech zones for instance ), freedom of religion (btw that means you cant force yours on others) things like school prayers, "under god" in the pledge of allegence, "in god we trust" on the money , and the debate over evolution being taught are all evidence of those who tried to turn freedom of religion into a state sanctioned religion.

Now there is talk of dusting off the Sedition Act

The right to Free speech (protest) and the Second Amendment go hand in hand...funny they are both under attack...

[Tom Yum]

Although I have no desire to pledge allegiance to it (this seems to be an American thing) anyone who tried to burn an Australian or New Zealand flag near me would regret the decision.

Just thought I'd chip in and say that we're glad to hear your country stopped the terrorist plot on time.

[BoarSpear]

Just thought I'd chip in and say that we're glad to hear your country stopped the terrorist plot on time.

On time I assume you meant IN time?

[Sagacious Lu]

I firmly believe that flag burning has to be legal; our freedom of speech is incredibly precious so I have to support that freedom no matter how angry I get at the way some people exercise it. I don't have any respect for someone who does protest by burning the flag though.

With every step away from freedom of speech (free speech zones for instance ), freedom of religion (btw that means you cant force yours on others) things like school prayers, "under god" in the pledge of allegence, "in god we trust" on the money , and the debate over evolution being taught are all evidence of those who tried to turn freedom of religion into a state sanctioned religion.

This bothers me too. There are too many people who will jump at every chance to force their religeon on others. The fact that an Alabama judge put the ten commandments up in his court room makes my blood run cold. If I have to stand on trial I expect to be judged by the laws of my country, not by the teachings of a religeon that I respect but do not live by. It seems like a lot of people have forgotten that some of the first settlers who moved here did so because they were not free to practice their religeon in their country.

[BoarSpear]

Boar, (and others)
I agree totally about the separation of church and state, but the amendment reads

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..."

And while I am neither particularly religious or at all Christian, it would seem as though telling any American that they cannot say "under God" if they choose (in any venue, I might add, to include schools) is both prohibiting the free exercise of religion and abridging their freedom of speech.

Remember though, under god was added by christians, it wasnt there originally. By doing so they group God and Country...that aint a seperation of Church and state! Its a freakin marriage

It implies we have gods approval for everything our leaders do, that we are under gods protection... gods nation even.

please dont tell me it could mean whatever higher power you want...its still putting FAITH in non human entities to guide your life and laws...god doesnt mean the same thing as Budda, Yaweh (sp) Allah etc especially not in this country, God in America means christianity's diety and we all know it.

The founding fathers didnt require me to mention god in my support for the country, In fact they would have freaked out over your requiring us to today.

If you were a christian in a muslim land and required to pledge to Allah to support their new country would you feel that was freedom of religion? Or would you feel they were sneaking their religion into politics? what if your kids were forced to pledge to this nation under Allah?

[eXcessiveForce]

I guess we can all show up at the rallies and burn pictures of flag burners...

Nope can't do that, they'd probably say it was a hate crime.

[eXcessiveForce]

My question is why can they burn the flag in town and I can't burn my leaves.

[treelizard]

I read that people in Cleveland got arrested for burning effigies of sports mascots. Charges (if I remember correctly) were arson, endangering the public, disorderly conduct, etc. Not sure if they stuck or not.

[eXcessiveForce]

But Mike how can we get along at recess without rules. Like what words we can and can't say.

How will we live without government telling us what we can do.

[BoarSpear]

My point is simply that when you censor what people say based on whether or not you agree with their right to say it, you open the door for others who disagree with you to prohibit your free expression simply because they think you're wrong. You may find it awful that someone printed "In God We Trust" on your money. So use a credit or debit card if it offends you that badly. If you can't agree with saying "One nation, under God" then just don't say it. If you feel it's wrong to place faith in non-human entities, then don't. But don't tell others they shouldn't or can't. To me, it's about the freedom to do or not do - to choose for oneself. Not the obligation or the prohibition. Just the choice.

You are missing the point, and if you really believe in the Christian sense of god, you ought to madder than I am its on our money. Money is a tool and a weapon... Those with it shape the world and the laws, those without it can only pray...funny the rich guys associated your faith with their money...and i dont use credit cards at all thanks...damn if i will speed the cashless society along any faster than the bankers already are.

When I went to school the pledge and morning prayer were not optional, But I didnt mind saying them, hell I believed in them. Today i would object to my kids being indoctrinated into religion by the school system like everyone was who grew up in the 60's.

It allows the leaders of the country to hide behind supposed christian values. Just look at the world stage today, we hold foriegn nationals and American citizens incommmunicado in secret prisons around the world, the pictures of torture are clear to see yet bush says...."We dont torture"....the pictures and videos showing the dead bodies from willie peter rounds are out now...yet we claim we dont use them on people.

All these things happen under the leadership of a Christian...a fanatical one if you ask me, but the world associates and judges all of us on his actions...thats my gripe, not the real christians with a belief, but the assholes exploiting that faith to further their agendas...hence my "In god we trust on the money" complaint.

Its hard to complain about Bush or the government without christians getting offended, they seem to believe he is one of them. He isnt. Unless christians sleep in a coffin as part of their faith...