Wtf??

[BoarSpear]

First we send in troops...thousands have been wounded or killed...all to end the reign of a tyrant...NOW we send a former US Attorney Gen to aide in Saddams defense? Can you say cover your own ass? I guess we want to control what Saddam says in his defense huh?.... THIS IS BULLSHIT!! It slaps every soldier who sacrificed life or limb directly in the face...


This message was paid for by the blood of average Americans... -



AHHHHHHHHH God Damn this shit PISSES me OFF!!!!


WWJD = What Wont Jackass Do?

[BoarSpear]

sure dude...sorry its front page news i figured everyone knew about it, my bad. i was just so pissed when i saw it, i had to scream

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20051127/ts_nm/iraq_saddam_trial_dc_3

Clark told Reuters before leaving Amman for the Iraqi capital on Sunday that he hoped to strengthen Saddam's defense.

"Our plan is to go to court in Baghdad on Monday morning representing the defense counsel as defense support," he said.

"A fair trial in this case is absolutely imperative for historical truth," said 77-year-old Clark, who has also offered advice to former Liberian leader Charles Taylor in the past.

"It is absolutely essential that the court is legal in its constitution. A court cannot be a court unless it is absolutely independent of all external pressures and forces," he said.

[BoarSpear]

I agree with you Mike, to an extent. We both know that NO ONE does anything on the world stage without some sort of approval...The ways they can make your life miserable if you try are legion and we both know it...If Bush WANTED to i believe he could find MANY different ways to stop this shit...thats just it...they really dont mind.

Look at how far we went to get Scott Barnes!! Or Bo Gritz Lets see we KILLED Col Nick Rowe to shut him up about POW's...Bo Gritz house was burned and his radio station suffered power surge after power surge and fire to take him off the air for discussing POWs never returned by the Russians after WW2...the Russians wanted money and we wouldnt pay it...Bo wound up shot....If this govt doesnt want you to talk...you dont.


Have you ever the PAGES and PAGES of people who died before they could testify in the Kennedy assasination? top FBI agents being shot and killed in their back yard the night before testifying....by a politicians 15yr old son...accidentally....no charges filed...whoops...how convienant...never mind all the others who shot themselves MULTIPLE times in the head to commit suicide rather than testify....

[Hardball]

If you think about it; it may work in favor of getting a conviction. After all, compentent attorneys are hard to find. I'm not Saying that Ramsey Clark is incompetent but how competent can a court appointed lawyer be? We all have to remember that Saddam's Fancy high priced lawyers have all been assassinated. What should the U.S. do? Declare a mis trial-- because the lawyers have been assassinated? Here in the u.s. when a witness get's assassinated the defendant goes home scott free. At least with a court appointed lawyer, the U.S. can get the conviction for Genocide and other war crimes Saddam is being charged with.

Just another angle to consider.

[BoarSpear]

If you think about it; it may work in favor of getting a conviction. After all, compentent attorneys are hard to find. I'm not Saying that Ramsey Clark is incompetent but how competent can a court appointed lawyer be? We all have to remember that Saddam's Fancy high priced lawyers have all been assassinated. What should the U.S. do? Declare a mis trial-- because the lawyers have been assassinated? Here in the u.s. when a witness get's assassinated the defendant goes home scott free. At least with a court appointed lawyer, the U.S. can get the conviction for Genocide and other war crimes Saddam is being charged with.

Just another angle to consider.

Very good point...there is already an established pattern of Saddams attorneys being kidnapped and killed...

[HtTKar]

Next thing you know, Iraq will be using US companies to drill their oil, US troops to patrol their streets, US money to rebuild their country, and US lawyers will be protecting the Saudi's. Remember James Baker?

This will all be rationalized using western thinking. All men are innocent until proven guilty, are protected by law, and have the right to a fair and speedy trial. In all honesty Sadamm does need a lawyer that is supportive, or at least ignorant of his past. Where else is he going to find a laywer that is educated and pursuasive enough to get Sadams money, and keep the trial rolling in the spotlight of the press. Remember, the US doesnt want Sadam dead, and they dont want him in prison. The more unstable his situation is, the better it is for snakes trying to set up a solid base in Iraq.

Its really nothing new...its all politics. Who has the money and who can create enough stability and smoke to keep the money moving secretly? Smoke and Mirrors..but what are they really trying to accomplish 10-15yrs down the road?

[cam427]

most of you will probably not like my opinion on this one

I dont see the issue with an american lawyer defending Saddam Hussain. The charges against him are nothing to do with the american invasion of his country and the fact that he rightfully defended it at the cost of US lives. It is about his treatment of his own people which while atrocious, is no worse (and often better) than many other countries that receive the support of the US (like Saudi). I saw an Iraqi on the news yesterday say that life was far better under Saddam than it is now. This seems to be a growing opinion.

Also you will notice that there are no charges relating to 9/11 because the Iraqi government had absolutely nothing to do with it. The argument about weapons of mass destruction is pathetic. I do believe that Iraq had biological weapons as the US goverment supplied them with Anthrax when they were at war with Iraq. They may also have been trying to develop nuclear weapons. So what. Who made America the world police. The country with the worlds largest supply of nuclear weapons is in no position to tell other countries that they cannot have them. Why dont they attack India, Pakistan, Russia, China, France. Is it because they are not sitting on a huge oil supply and have been weakened by years of sanctions put in place by america. Perhaps it is because the US has just been cut off by Venezula (the fourth largest oil producer in the world).

Are you suggesting that Saddam should not have a lawyer since his have been murdered. Do the rules of the justice system only apply to certain people? This seems to be the US government position (Guantanimo Bay springs to mind doesn't it).

And while we are talking about Slobodan, how many of you are aware that the same court that tried him also charged the US government with war crimes to which the US government replied that it did not accept that the international criminal court had any jurisdiction over it.

And just for your interest I always support the soldiers in war (even though I think the US is completely in the wrong to invade). Australian soldiers are also in Iraq (I am australian) and I support them 110%. It is the corrupt US government and the other countries that follow them for financial reasons regardless of the morality of the decision that I object to (like Australia did).

Cam

[cam427]

correction

I meant "at war with Iran" above.

[gregimotis]

What, like he might get aquitted or something? Come on, this court is for show anyway.

He's going to get convicted of being evil, then they'll spare him the death penalty to show how civillized we are, then they'll send him to jail and after that he'll disappear from the news entirly.

[PFC_Kurtz_John]

........... Look many people who are not in the military can't understand why we do the things we do. Not to mention the " News " twists things around and only gives you a one sided story. Plz try not to get pissed at something ( no offense ) you know nothing about. 1. When 9/11 happend we had all right to attack them in Afganistan. 2. Sadamn wtf ever was a tyrant. Yes its not our country but thats no reasion to turn a blind eye. He was a man doing terable things to his people. Now befor people flip out about men dieing you should know all military personel know what they are getting into. We chose to join knowing we might die. Dont get upset that we died. Yes be sad but dont do on some rampage because one of us died. We are ok with dieing, now some of us are not so thriled about it but we know its a chance we take as US soldiers.

[PFC_Kurtz_John]

It was directed at the general public that has never lived in a military family or served. Not to be rude but alot of ppl talk about the military and all they know is was the news tells them.

[PFC_Kurtz_John]

Im am with the 29th ID (L) 3/116 B co. Im from Edinburg VA USA im going to college right now and once im done im going to work for the police for 2 - 3 years then transfer to S.W.A.T. and from there im going sniper. ( i shot a 37 in basic and have shot that or higher ever sence, i have yet to get 40 )

[PFC_Kurtz_John]

Deal. And i NEVER re shoot. I will find out when our next qual day is and tell ya. Nice to talk to some one else who isnt lost in military lingo.

[cam427]

He's not being tried under American Law, so no, the rules of the US Judicial system do not apply to Saddam in any way. More, as far as his trial being held under the Iraqi court system, none of the required paperwork has even been submitted for a foreign attorney to represent Saddam at all, American or otherwise.

This is the same argument being used to explain why people being held in Guantanemo bay receive no human rights. According to this theory it would also be ok for Iraqis to torture and murder captured american (or Australian) servicemen because it is acceptable under their system. I disagree.

True, but he did little or none of the "defending." He ran and hid inside a deep dirt hole and left the defending and the dying to others.

This is a pretty weak argument. Does George Bush lead the patrols through Falujah? Of course not, that isn't his job.

Maybe among those who have become victims of terrorist and insurgent violence. That is not the fault of Americans or any of her allies. It's the fault of so-called anti-occupation fighters that care nothing about killing their fellow Iraqis in order to achive a political goal.

I actually agree with you on this point to a great extent. The insurgents are the ones with the car bombs, etc but the american forces are not helping our cause (yes I said "our" as my country is there also) by using WP etc.

Cam, here's where we truly part company. To call the American government corrupt, you have to be willing to call every other government on the planet equally corrupt. After all, we are a big part of most economies, and a working model for a lot of governments, including those in the countries that so vocally disapprove of who we are and what we do. And while it may be true that corruption exists at every level of every government on Earth, I do not believe it's right to say that we're wrong for invading Iraq because of corrupt government. Today, people are dying because of a political process that is in its infancy. The people who stand to lose power and credibility are killing those who stand to, for the first time in generations, have a free voice in determining their own government. This, in any light you view it, is preferable to random rapings of married Iraqi women, to outright torture and murder of their husbands, blanket killings of political opponents or even those who simply voiced disapproval of Saddam, and the attempted genocide of Iraqi Kurds. Anyone who says today's Iraq is as bad as it was under Saddam either has a very short memory, or is exaggerating the situation to make a statement.

I do think the American government is corrupt in that it is totally contolled by large industry. I also agree that most other countries go along for the ride and let the US do whatever they want simply because they want a piece of the pie. You are assuming that the political process is in its infancy but I believe it is dead. The regime of Saddam will be replaced by an Islamic fundamentalist government which will be far more dangerous to Israel and the US than Saddam ever was. This is already being seen is Sadr city where the US forces are relatively safe as they let al Sadr's forces control the area and impose sharia law in return for keeping the insurgents out.

I agree that many bad things happenned under Saddam (which was why I originally supported the war) but at the end of the day who is in a better position to know than an Iraqi.

The UN did. By ignoring their own threats to enforce resolutions that were passed to keep Saddam in check, they flat out blew any hint of credibility they may have had. They left the door open to Saddam and any other dictatorial tyrant on Earth to develop, buy, sell, and use WMD against the West because they made it clear that they were not willing or able to stand up and follow through on their own threats. Are you honestly arguing that it's okay for Iraq to have Nukes? Are you actually saying that it isn't any concern for the rest of the world if a mentally unstable, genocidal man who killed members of his own family in public meeting rooms for diagreeing with him - a man who took his own sons to a jailhouse so that they could have the experience of shooting men by the age of 16 - has nuclear weapons? Brother, if you believe that any nation should be free to develop nukes and that the rest of us have no right or responsibility to intervene, you need to get your head checked. By that logic, it's okay if Iran has them, too, right? Even after their president issued a public announcement that it's his administration's INTENT to wipe Israel off the map by force? But I guess none of us should get involved in that either, huh. After all, we're not the world's police.

I think that if you have nuclear weapons then you have no right to forcably remove them from others just because you see them as "bad". Who decided that Iran was evil. Iran does not like america or Israel but that does not make it evil. America does not like Cuba so does that mean they are evil? I think the Iranians would be no more likely to use nuclear weapons than the US. I am not sure how much history you have on Iran but they used to be a very free democracy until the american government overthrew the president and replaced him with a dictator. That is why they hate the US.

Does that mean I would be comfortable with the idea of Saddam or the taliban having nukes. NO!! but the controls put in place to prevent them were working without the invasion.

I know I'm coming after you a little here, Cam, but believe me - I don't fault you for your opinions. But it's cliches like "Who made America the World Police" that make me think back in history to some other times when we could have stayed out of it. World War I, for example. Not really our fight. World War II. Europe's problem for the most part. So what if Hitler wants to eradicate the Jews? We're not the world police. I guess if you had it your way, we'd allow the Moussolini's, the Pol Pot's, the Hitler's, the Stalin's, the bin Laden's, and the Saddam Husseins of the world do whatever they wanted to whomever they wanted? But before you go slinging newscast soundbites like the "world police" around, think about the kind of world we'd be living in right now if America had stayed out of it during those other times. Imagine the kind of world you'd be living in if we didn't get involved and someone like Saddam got himself some nukes. He blasts Israel, who blasts back, and it's the same scenario that we fought the Cold War over. Half the people on Earth are dead, and the rest live in a permanent radioactive winter. It might even kill the Australian tourism industry! No one wants to dive a barrier reef covered in glowing orange fishes, after all.

Ok. Firstly I want to say that it is ok that you are coming after me. I knew my opinions would not be popular when I stated them.

Secondly. I would like to say that I apprieciate all of the time the US have helped us. I visited the memorial at the D-Day landing beaches last year and I really apprieciate the sacrfice made by the US people during the last few wars.

Thirdly. Nothing could destroy the australian tourist industry and most of the fish on the reef are already orange

I understand your points, but I think your world view might be a little myopic on this issue. After all, everyone, including Australia, believed Saddam had those weapons at the start of the war (see also "Where are the WMD in Iraq" thread on this forum). Everyone saw what Saddam did to his people over the years. And the vast, vast majority of Iraqis are happy to be rid of him. And since Saddam is being tried by Iraqis, under Iraqi law, in an Iraqi court for crimes against the Iraqi people, no, I don't think an American attorney needs to be there - unless he is well versed in Iraqi law and certified as an attorney in that country by their version of the Bar Association. And as far as his defense attorney's getting killed, who knows? Maybe they're bing murdered by some of those folks that you claim are so unhappy that he's no longer in power. Still, since it's a former Iraqi dictator ebing tried in an Iraqi court, who are we to make sure they're protected? After all, what are we? The World's Police?

I have already stated that I believe that Saddam had Chemical and Biological weapons (but not nukes) and I am certainly not defending anything that Saddam did to any of his people but I think you will find that even under Iraqi law he is entitled to a lawyer and I don't see the offence that was taken by everyone in the original post that the lawyer happens to be american.

I have seen lots of evil dictators do things to lots of people (like in Zimbabwe right now for example) but no one steps in then. Do not be mistaken, the US government attacked Iraq for the oil.

And by the way I have served in the Australian army so I am not speaking from a point of view that does not understand the military. My argument is not with the military but with the governments that control them.

Cam

[BoarSpear]

yeah buddy! The last 2 post were great! I agree with points you both made...Its a tough subject.

I will start with the most important differences in opinion.
America Is bought and paid for...The big money players get the people they want on the ballot, we get to pick the lesser of the two evils they present us ...Bush is a worthless warmongering monkey...with all due respect to a wartime president. As for Bushes gumption for battle? PLEEEZZZE...remember how he FROZE UP when the planes hit the Towers? No matter what was going on...his ass should have been out of the chair...and into action!! ANY #$@%@ that couldnt figure to tell the CHILDREN "the president is a very important and busy man, something has come up and he has to leave now boys and girls...lets thank him for his time..." Nah, Bush freezes up....then they issue that lame assed statement he didnt want to disturb the children He is many things, however "Warrior or even decent leader" we can look up to are not on his list of attributtes.

Iran is a problem today because of the regime change that the BRITISH and US helped bring about, as Cam stated...MUCH of the world picture today we freakin CAUSED!!..that being said now we have to deal with it...

Ramsey may "get the honor"" of dying for the cause he believes in...I wish him luck in that respect.

Just imagine if Hitler had been captured alive...And some Jewish bigshot lawyer rushed to defend him...jews who lost so much in that war might be a little miffed at the bastard for wanting to defend that tyrant huh? Never mind the people from the armies he faced...

Gitmo is WRONG all the little secret prisons we are scattering around europe is sort of ironic and creepy at the same time...

and yes the nukes are scary...especially in the hands of IDIOTS who have religious agenda ...thank god no who has them has a "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" mentality...

as for Mikes analogy of Iran and the guy killing people in jeans....that works if you explain that the jeans are the uniform of the people who stole their democracy...for profit.