A cultist is....

[J-Luck]

Definition of cult...

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

[BoarSpear]

Makes you wonder who gets to determine which religions are false.

Why those WILLING to enforce their beliefs on others, or those so egotistical as to declare war on others who believe differently, perhaps even using torture to gain confessions...Gee I dunno who that would be

[J-Luck]

Makes you wonder who gets to determine which religions are false. Anyone remember studying the Mormon Wars?

Well, I think as far as religions go, any religion without the purpose of salvation, or some sort of etification of the individual, the group, society, and the religions creator or supreme being, is a cult.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Exactly like Christianity.

[J-Luck]

Exactly like Christianity.

Wait, I thought they had banned you for making stupid remarks... whatever. You're an idiot... that's all I'm going to say. 'till you can back the last statement up(in which case I'll destroy your argument with a logical, intelligent, reasonable counterpoint), shut up. Stupid people shouldn't post unless they agree not to be ignorant and argue.

[kingoftheforest]

Have you ever thought that maybe the only reason you think this is a big deal at all is because these Skull and Bones fellas don't have the same kind of dysfunction you do, and their group has succeeded in getting them to the top while ours has maybe fallen short? Has it occurred to you that their very success might have inspired others to throw mud at them from time to time, either to discredit them or simply out of spite and jealously?

First I really don't want to argue with you Mr. Brewer but it's most likley gonna happen anyway and I'll get trounced like Royce but here goes....


If the means of getting to the top includes any of the following

1. Murder

2. Decieving millions of people at the possible cost of thier health or lives.

3. Selling another country that the U.S. is at war with weapons, or fuel, or means to gain these.

4. Trafficing illegal drugs that are known to be highly addictive and life and health threatining i.e. crack cocaine.

5. Destroying another countries infrastructure for monetary gain, or gain of my partners.

6.Covering up any of the above for myself or any of my cronies.

If any of these means are needed to employ my rise to the top, then I am happy to sit back and get my dysfunctional ass by on whatever I can get.

No disrespect intended but it seems all the families in power have highly traceable crimal activity in thier rise to power. No disrespect intended Sir but if that's what it takes to run with the sharks I'll keep my feet dry thanks.

[Dim Wit Moc]

If anyone is interested in learning what a cult is not, I can make it very succinct. This tells what pure religion and pure Christianity is. Trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation and living the following two scriptures is what God wants from those who would please Him.

Luke 10: 27 "And he (Jesus) answered and said, THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself."

Micah 6: 8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and TO WALK HUMBLY WITH THY GOD."

So called "Christians" who do not do these things, might as well eat, drink, be merry, or join a cult. The Bible is very clear that they will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Dim Wit Moc]

What if a group of people devotes themselves so totally to Jesus Christ that they feel they can only worship according to the scriptures by removing themselves from the evils of normal society? What if this group decides that the negative and ungodly influences around them are so out of whack with the Bible that they pack up their children and move to some remote part of the wilderness, sell off their belongings to finance their new "monastery" and then live each and every day in strict adherence to every word of the Bible? They teach their children that Adam and Eve were truly the first people on Earth, and that from them came all of mankind. They teach that the Earth was formed along with the heavens in just seven days. They teach the entire earth was nce flooded, and that Noah and his family carried literally two of each and every species of animal on Earth in a boat just a few hundred feet long (never mind that he couldn't have gathered up animals from places across the oceans before the flood hit). When outsiders try to find out what's going on in this monastery, the group shuts the doors and chases the outside influences away. They don't allow their children to relate to the rest of the wolrd, and they don't allow things like computers and the internet in because of all the ungodly things out there that might corrupt the children.

Is this a cult?

The only issue that I address is what a cult is not. One man's junk is another man's treasure. One man's cult is another man's Godly splinter faction.

[kingoftheforest]

Wow thats long

Sorry this took so long but christ this is a looong post lol. I had to edit this to make it fit. I had to remove most of the quotes.


1.George Washington declared war on the British to preserve his basic human rights. He gave them a chance to surrender, they were on the land he also lived on not thousands of miles away. Not with trumped up still unproven claims of W.M.D.'s. Killing to survive because a immediate enemy is attacking and killing you and your people is not what I'd consider murder. A cat kiling a mouse for food is not murder. A political leader attacking a possibly but not proven threatening country I would consider murder. Bombing innocent people and turning up terroristic attacks that kill hundreds of innocents...including soliders who have been bambooozeled into thinking what's going on is right.... is murder.

Invading 2 countries at once and considering a third is not only murder but is also insanity. Fighting for self prservation is not murder. Killing an unarmed man in the street for calling your wife a fatass is murder. Killing a man with a knife attacking you is self defense.

But if the world would mind it's on business maybe we wouldn't have this problem.



First of all my glass house doesn't cost millions of people jobs or thier lives or millions of dollars. With great power comes great responsibility. How can you trust someone to be responsible when they can't even find the door to get out of a room. When your deceptions are for personal and monetary gain, and cause millions of people world wide suffering, thats irresponsible i don't give a ratass who you are. If i fuk around on my wife and come home with V.D. like say A.I.D.S. and don't tell her......then she turns up sick and dies also would you agree that that deception was ok. What if she was pregnant and the child also contracted it. That's the kind of rotten deception the government gives us. Not telling your wife she doesn't look fat in a dress when she does.



First in the world we live in I can understand the need for certain alignments but,,, at the same token the former U.S.S.R. is gone and the Afgani's are here as a problem. It seems everyone we help to keep our asses out of the fire at one time or another come back to burn us. Is juggling with chemical. biological, and nuclear weapons a stage act you want to play? Not me. It seems that the way we protect ourselves is by setting up more chances to fight later so that the Military Industrial complex can keep on rolling and people like weapons manufacturers can keep making money and keep Georie Porgie Pudding Pie rich and in office. I feel it would have been better to never start this game to begin with. If someone was that much of a threat at any given time....then we come back to deception. I'll be diplomatic with you while I give the means to your enemies to destroy you. America making friends the world over. by what screwing everyone including it's on people. Politicians are rich and have only loyalty to money. They only care about our asses if we are killing the right bad guys for them and slaving at our jobs.



Agreed. Whilst people should be able to live thier lives...drugs made in a factory or a factory funded by a government slush fund are worng. If it grows on a tree or plant or occurs naturally in nature fine whatever. But if you gotta add drano to make it nope sorry that's more deception. That's once again baiting peoiple for your own gain. I likes the drywall hammer comment though, but I prefer a ballpeen lol wrong end really tortues fingers and toes. Not to mention 2 foot long Nujknidshfguiyg wbites.



Good call on looking abroad Mike everyone does that. I was talking about here at home. This country is screwed. We are over weight overcommercialized, and undereducated. First worl stats show this. We have been made dumb and fat because industry and goverment have teamed up to make shitloads of money off the American people's health and well bieng. We are slowly being turned to mindless cattle. I don't expect you to completley or even partial agree with me Mr. Brewer. You don't work the 5am to 200pm M-F warehouse job. That's my own doing and I won't argue that one bit. However while you work with some of the best and the brightest I work with the "rest" of America. Nobody has a clue how bad things are in the rest of the world. Nor do these fat uneducated slobs care. 90% of the people I work with shy away from subjects such as, war, fighting thats not on PPV, Iraq, nuclear weapons, the governments shows of inneptitude, people never actually being punished for crimes. They all feel these things are to scary and that Uncle Sa will take care of things like he always does.

Cattle that's all. Go to the mall and look around man, I hate the mall, look at the people's faces find me a large amount of intelligence. How many of htese people would you trust alone in the woods for a week? Not many.



No argument there. I think some things people just don't need to know about you're right. But on the other had it seems like there are 2 legal systems in this country, depending on what you can afford. If I accidentally shot someone while hunting I would have been jailed for some period of time till I waited for a public defender, and may have still spent time in for my "crime". The V.P. shoots a buddy and lies about not drinking, jokes about taking the old bastard out to be shot, and walks away clean???? The blatant half assed cover up's going on latley are what really get my goat (at least until nutter stole it sick bastard).

There is a basic principle in science that says any observation one makes must take into account the natural bias and effect of the observer himself. In your argument here, you have made six very broad, very sweeping moral judgements. You have failed to take into account that each and every one of them can not only be necessary at times, but also "right." You have failed to take into account that in many cases, these very things that you claim you are against have provided you with the nation you are a citizen of, and every nation besides it in this time and throughout history. Beyond those failings, you have also failed to consider that in nearly every instance, you are not only guilty of the same offenses to a much smaller degree (simply because you don't have the same power or influence of a President), but have benefitted willingly from these acts. And in cases where neither of those things is true, you have failed to acknowledge the basic fact that sometimes, especially when dealing with nations that neither share our morals nor care if we live beyond tomorrow, tools that might otherwise be called "immoral" are actually the only ones that work at all. See, I am a pragmatist at heart. I believe that your sense of morals is largely dependent on your available options. Those who have nearly everything they need to live a happy life will invariably have a much more strict definition of what others around them should be allowed to do. However, those who live without are forced to re-examine their ethics somewhat. Would you hold it against the starving masses in Indonesia after this earthquake if they stole food and formula for their starving babies? What if the theft of these items destroyed the livelihood of the store owners from whom they stole? Things rarely exist in the simple black and white terms you've listed as your main condemnations. And while I agree with you that it would be truly wonderful if we had the luxury of living strictly by higher morals, I recognize that the world is full of people lookng to capitalize on that very ideal, and that doing so with them in the wwings is not only irresponsible, but the path to failure and the end of our nation.

Morals are a realitive term in most cultures. But every "human" on the planet should understand basic ones. I am guilty of all of these things yes. But as you said my power doesn't extend as far as these people, but I'd much rather see my wife cry cause I lied about buying porn PPV than to see hundreds of people bombed out of thier lives and homes because I lied about W.M.D's. Big diffrence I think.

The world we live in became corrupt long before I was put into it. Religion money and greed for power and control over people "different" from you have caused all we see today. I only try to keep myself as clean as possible and at the same time defend myself intelligently hoping more people will wake up and see we still haven't gotten it right yet.

You have put a lot on time and though into your reply to my original post Sir. I thank you for that I enjoy intelligent coversation on these forums as opposed to name calling and spell checking. I know I have nowhere the ability to argue these point completly with you Mr. Brewer. You have seen and done alot more in your time than I have in mine. I appreciate seeing your input on this since I live with very biased side of this argument and I most likley drive Boar nuts every day with hundreds of questions. But he is a great guy and a neverending resource of knowledge. You two are alot alike in that respect. No disrespect intended

[J-Luck]

P.S.
In light of your judgements and opinions, I'd like to ask who you think was a "good leader" upon which to model our ideals. Certainly there must be one leader out of the entire history of the Earth that can serve as a model for the way it ought to be done. I'd like your thoughts on that, if you please.

And also consider:
If such a leader is as exceedingly hard to find as I suspect it will be, you might begin to wonder whether it's you that's denying the Truth of the world, or the leaders - all of them throughout history - that have it wrong. My Daddy always said to me that when everyone has the same criticism about you, like it or not, there's usually something to it.

Jesus Christ.

[J-Luck]

What if a group of people devotes themselves so totally to Jesus Christ that they feel they can only worship according to the scriptures by removing themselves from the evils of normal society? What if this group decides that the negative and ungodly influences around them are so out of whack with the Bible that they pack up their children and move to some remote part of the wilderness, sell off their belongings to finance their new "monastery" and then live each and every day in strict adherence to every word of the Bible? They teach their children that Adam and Eve were truly the first people on Earth, and that from them came all of mankind. They teach that the Earth was formed along with the heavens in just seven days. They teach the entire earth was nce flooded, and that Noah and his family carried literally two of each and every species of animal on Earth in a boat just a few hundred feet long (never mind that he couldn't have gathered up animals from places across the oceans before the flood hit). When outsiders try to find out what's going on in this monastery, the group shuts the doors and chases the outside influences away. They don't allow their children to relate to the rest of the wolrd, and they don't allow things like computers and the internet in because of all the ungodly things out there that might corrupt the children.

Is this a cult?

Well the only reason churches teach those parts of Genisis is becuase they aren't properly educated. I talk the book of Genisis word for word. But the Bible doesn't say humanity came from Adam and Eve, it only says the were the first people... who's to say there weren't plenty of other people created, and that their stories just weren't significant, that for the sake of the edification for the target audience all they needed to know about was Adam and Eve.

Humanity at the time of the flood was limited to Mesopatamia... any text book will tell you that. So, in reality, the "wold" at the time of the flood was mesopotamia... and the words used in Hebrew to describe animals, don't descibe birds, bugs, and many other animals, it's just over translation that we get these ideas. So, you limit the types of animals that can be on board, you limit the area, and all of a sudden the idea is very plausible.

Hebrew word used to describe day in Genisis was a word that had 3 meanings...A 12 hour period, a 24 hour period, and a period of time seperated by 2 significant events... now put into context... this explains alot.

Good Christianity teaches you to in the world, but not of it. Christ calls for all followers to spread the good news(gospel message). If you isolate yourself, you can't lead those who are astray. Therefore you are in sin.

[J-Luck]

I'll try and be brief.

You're still trying to impose your morals on the entire world, and none of your arguments are coming from anything but those moral judgements. For instance, the statement:



This is a purely delusional statement! The whole world will never (and can never) "mind its own business." You try and get the entire world to agree on even one thing, let alone everything. It will not happen, and it is hopelessly unrealistic to assume anything different. Besides, let's say that theoretically, it did happen. What happens when one nation decides not to play ball? With everyone else minding their own business, that one nation takes over the world because everyone else fails to pay attention.

"Invading two countries and considering a third" is not only evidence that you have not thought this through in pragmatic terms, but also that you are no student of history at all. How many countries did we have to invade in World War II? How many oceans were between them? This statement gives me the impression that you get a lot of your opinions from ABC, NBC, and CBS news. Even your words are straight from headlines. In World War II, we had to maintain fronts (meaning invade and occupy) parts of half a dozen countries. Some of them with far too few troops and inferior equipment. We lost hundreds of thousands of troops. And it was almost universally accepted as the right thing to do.



No offense, man, but read a book! The soviets had more nukes, bio weapons, and chemical weapons than we did, and they were exapnding! Arming the Afghanis and forcing such a massive action in Afghanistan by the Soviets was one of the largest contributing factors to the fall of the USSR. Now, we are dealing with RPGs and roadside bombs, and body counts in the low thousands. Are you trying to make me believe for a millisecond that the situation in Afghanistan right now is even comparable to what we'd be facing with an expanded and more capable USSR? That's nuts! We did exactly the right thing, and damn the blowback. Fighting the Taliban now is infinitely preferable over fighting the Soviets armed with even more territory and over half of the world's oil reserves. If you can't see that, and see it clearly, then this is not a debate or a discussion. It's me talking to a wall.



Horseshit. We've been made fat and dumb for the same reasons that you'd even entertain the idea that the whole world can just mind their own business. We are fat and dumb because we have chosen to let everyone else do for us. We have so much that we have forgotten what it means to earn our way. People line up with their hats out sayinig gimme gimme gimme, and we live in a country of such means as to do just that. I'm frankly tired of hearing people blame McDonald's because their ass is so fat they don't fit in a coach airline seat. Here's another pie in the sky theory to go along with the "minding our own business" pipe dream: "When people learn to take responsibility for their own choices and actions, maybe some of these problems will go away."

Let's just attack these points for now, and I'll come back later to talk about the rest. I gotta go for a bit. Talk to you soon.

Good post. I gave it rep points lol

[kingoftheforest]

My moral judgments???

First my delusional statement wasn't meant as a feasability. I'm not a fuking moron I understand the world could at this point never even fathom minding it's own business. The world has been trained for a very long time not to, or at least the people in it.

Secind yes we invavded a lot of countries during WWII but we had a LARGE majority of the world on our side as you pointed out, not just politically but on all levels.. Not like it is now where many people opposeto what we are doing for good reason. I don't watch the news and I don't have cable, I do however read alot. Unfortunatley not the censored Barnes and NObles Borders book school approved crap thank you very much, I stopped doing that 10 years ago when I graduated highschool.

Second I think that the U.S.S.R. wasn't a bunch of religious fanatics that wanted to die for thier god.They definitley had more military power I agree than the Afgans but I would rather fight with someone who shows an understanding of thier place in the political wolrd even if they want it to be over big bad America than a buch of people who feel I am the incarnation of Satan and everything bad with the world. Especially if any of them may have dirty nukes.

Tell me you want to fight a bunch of people who feel they have more to gain from dying than living????


AS for your take on my fat and dumb rant. You just pointed out everything I said. The industry has given us MIcrowave, cruise control, kitchen appliances that do all the work, McDonald's and other fast foods. Preprepared meals in a bag, even musician don't have to play instruments any more to "create" music. You are right the gimme gimme attitude of instant gratification has ruined america. That was what I was trying to get across. BUt we have been trained to do this by government and industry.


I'm not saying I have the answers because I don't. But we are screwing ourselves by letting ourselves be screwed by a bunch of people who got to the top doing a lot of dirty things and no caring who they stepped on. If you can't come to some terms with that then I can't argue with you because your own biased are getting in the way of even considering that these people on top may have not gotten thier by a more maral path that is avalible. That path may not be avalible anymore because the keepers of it are all to corrupt.


When I work myself half to death and come home to little boys being raped by priest, head officals of companies being charged with a whole slew of ethical and moral crimes, little children being murderd or raped by family members, on the news, and bills I can hardly pay to keep my family fed and a roof over thier heads that something isn't wrong with the leadership in this country. I have very few extras in my life. I have internet and a couple credit card bills, very small, 1 car payment an then the regular rent and utilities, both me and my wife work overtime to pay this. Now if your're telling me all I have to do is sell some drugs, frame a couple of my friends, steal from unsuspecting people, and possibly destabalize a government...so that I can lay on a warm sandy beach on my own private island for the rest of my life with out a care in the world, then are you gonna sign up with me and help. I'll give ya half the island.

[J-Luck]

J-Luck,
I'm posting this separate because it deserves attention. I am not arguing for or against. I'm not saying that this is the way the Bible should be interpreted. The point I was making is that people can read the same book - the same words - in different ways. Your interpretation leads you to the conclusions you've listed. Others read the Bible and teach that it was all literal fact. You may see your interpretation as "Good Christianity" but I highly doubt that that leaves millions of others sitting around their communal gatherings thinking, "It's too bad we're all practicing Bad Christianity." My point is that to those people who read it differently than you do, you're probably misled or wrong in their eyes, just as they are wrong in yours. Some might go so far as to say that your philosophy of going out and leading those who are astray (regardless of whether or not they want a leader) is cultish - that you and other missionaries, evangelicals, etc., are "forcing your religion" on others, and that your actions are immoral or wrong. I feel safe in assuming that you don't see your faith that way, but I truly find it fascinating that you'd brand others with conviction to equal your own "wrong" or "bad" for doing the same kinds of things you yuorself believe in. After all, your faith is all that tells you you're the one who's right. What makes your faith any more reliable than theirs?

I'm not sure you understand. I take the Bible WORD FOR WORD... I thought I had stated that, if not, my bad. I just look into it more, and do my research. Doing research doesn't mean I don't take it word for word.

I am right because I take the logical, reasonable approach. I think things through, and see everything with a critical eye. I've grown up in a Christian home(and my dad is a pastor), but for a while, I didn't believe in God alltogether. Science, archeology, historical authenticity all got to me. But then, I stated doing my research, and realised it's quite the opposite, and that as far as historical documents go, those in the Bible are amongst the most accuracte and most reliable in history. Also, archeological advances have only PROVED stories and people and places in the Bible exist time and time again, never the other way. Science supports the Bible too. And the points I brought up are the only logical way to interpret the Bible. Logical, resaonable thinking are not lost on Christians lol.

As far as good Christianity... it is difficult to operate under the assumption that the Bible teaches isolation. You would have to elevate certain scriptures while downgrading others. Every scripture is important, and they should all be learned in context, and followed to their logical conclusion.

I think I already went over the definition of a cult, and I think I accuratly answered your previous post showing how you think people would possibly think certain forms of Christianity are cults. Your post doesn't follow that definition.

[J-Luck]

So we can invade all the countries we want as long as lots of people agree? How does that make it more moral?

So answer the question about the USSR and Afghanistan. Who would you rather be forced to face? A nuclear power with a massive bio and chemical weapons program, or some religious fanatics that have thus far been unable to cause even 4,000 casualties in two different theaters over four years? I maintain we made the right choice, and I'd fault any leader who chose differently.

And the fat dumb rant is not the fault of industry or government. Try to imagine the bitching and complaining you'd hear (or participate in?) if the government tried to regulate what kinds of food you could eat, what kinds of appliances you could use, and what kinds of industry you were allowed to participate in. You're acting like one of those people who bails the water out of the boat without turning off the faucet. Do you think any of those industries would exist without lazy people running around demanding them? What came first? This massive training program by industry and government to teach us all to be slobs? Or was it the slobs that made industry figure out that there was money in giving slobs what they wanted in the first place? There is no supply without demand. People made their choices, and industry catered to that - not the other way around.

I acknowledge freely that there are all sorts of screwed up people in this world that do reprehensible things. I'm not arguing that point. What I am arguing is that the things that they choose as tools for their misdeeds can just as easily be used for noble purposes by others. You started off by saying that a list of six items is always immoral and wrong. My argument is that your statement was far too sweeping and limited in view. Are priests that rape little boys good people? Hell No! They ought to burn in the hottest, most fiery part of their hell for ten eternities. Are murderers justified? Not always. But sometimes, murder is not only a tool to be used for higher purposes, it's the only tool that will work.

And J-Luck:
I knew you'd say Christ. That means that the only example you can muster is not only someone who is hard to verify as a historical figure - at least inasmuch as nothing except the gospels talk about his miracles, and only a few otside sources even mention his existence - but someone who hardly led nations during his lifetime. In short, the only example of a leader that did not rely on the list that KOTF posted was God himself (if you believe the Bible is true), or a great teacher who had but twelve disciples during his lifetime.

My point is that you are relying on an example that may or may not have been real, and is most likely steeped in fable as much as historical fact. You've also chosen someone who travelled with a small group - not a leader of nations. And if you intend to make the case that Jesus Christ's influence is the thing upon which he should be judged; the thing that proves his legacy rose above the six items in KOTF's list, then I highly suggest that you research papal indulgences, the Inquisiition, the Crusades, and many other things done in the name of Jesus Christ.

And in any event, you've picked one person out of tens of thousands of leaders. Am I to believe that only a God in the flesh can embody the things that KOTF says are imperatives for a good leader? And if that's the case, we have a horrible conflict, don't we? Didn't Lucifer find himself cast from heaven for wanting to be like God? What does that say about man if the only moral and ethical model we can find to emulate is God in the flesh? What kind of trouble would we bring on ourselves for wanting to be just like Him?

Care to try again?

HELL NO LOL!! HAHA... hard to verify, actually one of the easier historical figures to verify, you must do your research my friend. Remember, the only reason the gospels aren't taken seriously is becuase they mention supernatural events, and other than that, historians have only been able to verify events and places and people in the Bible, not the other way around. So, the gospels in and of themselves are good enough(and i dont feel like getting into a whole discussion about their accuracy, if you want, we can start a thread on the open section about that). So no, I am basing Jesus on hard evidence and him being fairly easy to verify.

Did I mention the crusades, nope... Much more good has been done in the name of Christ ANYWAY, but that's a different story.

Since when do I care about what KOTF said? YOU said find one we can base our morals on. So yes, you are to belive that a being comprised of 100% God, and 100% man is the only one who has EVER embodied that. Lucifer didn't want to be like God, he wanted to take over heaven for himself, he was selfish and greedy, not characters of God, you are sadly mistaken using him as an example, as wanting to take over heaven for him self would inherently make him out of the question in this discussion.

Being like him is the ideal, it will never be achieved,but it's the ideal. So it's a great thing to strive for.