All Hell has Broke Loose!!!

[eXcessiveForce]

as for why won't those with nuclear weapon use them? well we have had them for 50 years yet they were only used once.

I would like to know the understand of the people in some of these countries in the middle east as to what the capabilities of Militarized western nations are.

Do they understand that the U.S. could depopulate the entire country of Iran, Syria, or Iraq, in days. And seconds if we used nuclear weapons.

It is that we value human life, even those fighting against us that we don't do this.

[gregimotis]

If you live close to here you would have noticed that a long time ago.

I can see that my post sounds a bit naive upon re-reading it. What I meant to say was more like this: All the players in that mess want to fight it out, nobody really wants a peaceful solution - let's quit wasting our breath (and our honesty) on false truces and 'roadmaps to peace'.

[kingoftheforest]

It's time to call the situation what it is. The Islamists are the bad guys, plain and simple. They are the ones who will not accept peace or co-existence. They are the ones slaughtering people - even their own people when others are in short supply - in the name of their God.

I really, really don't want to get into another debate but, isn't this an example of what most major religions do at one point in time or another. The spanish inqusitions killed hundreds of "heathens" which were just normal people living in a Christian society that didn't like people contradicting them.

Also this part of the world has been at war with itsel forever yes. But logically if Israel wasn't there and they hadn't stolen the lands from the people who lived there by force this might not be what it is right now.

The American Indians fought back against us. Were they wrong to defend thier lands and country? Thier families and homes? The Israelese get help from all around the world, the people they are fighting get help from only each other.
Why did the U.S. veto the U.N. resolution to stop this?

From what I see the original people of the lands are fighting for thier lands back. They have been for several decades now. The rest of the world turns a blind eye to them because industry prophets of off these little fights. Plus it keeps an unstable Middle East which is also to our bennefit.

The bigger economic countries don't seem to want to help anyone that doesn't have or provide something they can profit from. What are you gonna do with a bunch of sand and rocks?

This all boils down to the rest of the world turning a blind eye because guilt is something the world leaders won't admit to. This situation was created by power and money hungry world leaders who don't care about poor desert nomads.

[kingoftheforest]

And to a large degree, you're right, KOTF. I am not disputing the fact that no world leader likes to accept the heat for a bad decision that cost a lot of lives. I also agree that this shouldn't be another tired argument over the same points, so I will work hard to keep it from becoming one. But in looking at this situation, there are some major differences. First, Hezbollah lost any right - any at all - to point fingers at Israel for inflicting civilian casualties the minute it fired over a hundred unguided rockets at civilian populated settlements and cities. They had (and still have) utterly no concern for killing civilians, or for hostage taking, torture, ransoming, hijacking, etc. In this issue, I think people would do well not to let their views be colored by the headlines ofthe past. It's very, very tough not to fall back on what you've seen before in making decisions and forming opinions about "what is, right now." But in this case, look at how often Israel has given ground. Look at how often they've exchanged 50 or 60 known terrorists just to get one of their own back. Look at the times they have reduced their own territory to appease those who would see them destroyed.

And then look at the complete absence of acknowledgement from Hezbollah of the actions that started the conflicts.

Hezbollah has been using Lebanon because Lebanon has refused to control them. Israel has appealed to them time and again to do so, but the South is owned by Hezbollah, and lebanon has thus far turned a blind eye to acts of war being launched by a terrorist group within its own borders. Hezbollah calls the attacks "disproportionate" in response to their kidnapping of a few soldiers and launching of a few missiles into the fourth largest city (and second or third largest tourist destination) in Israel. I say that Hezbollahs actions are disproportionate to the concessions Israel has made. Hezbollah is being used asa means to an end, by Syria and by Iran. Lebanon is between a rock and a hard place because they have failed to act for so long. Now, they have to face a civil war of their own in order to show that they are willing to control their own country.

Bottom line is, this is indeed a very, very different situation - no matter how many similarities it might have to things past. But very good points on your part, and kudos for presenting them in a way that's not argumentative!

Thank you. I'd like to ask though how we can discount the actions that began this mess. Israel used the King David hotel bombings as a false flag claiming Palastien was behind it. Numerous civilians (alot of women and children) died during these bombings. Then the Palastienians were forced off thier land at gun point. I'd also like to point out that hundreds of thousands of civilians were effected by Israel bombing the Power Plant that was in Palestien. It took U.S. money to repair that Plant. Those people aren't allowed the same rules. The Israelies attacked Civilians first in this conflict. Didn't they have civilian hostages from Palestien?
The fact of the matter is that Israel being forced onto those lands displaced people unrightfuly. These people have only been fighting for thier own land back. Isn't this one of the principles our country was founded on (mind you while we stole it from theNatives.)?

I just want to understand why it's so wrong for people to stand up for thier own rights? Is it because the Israelies have made us thier friends and the desert nomand have nothing we (being world government and business) can bennefit from?

I ask these questions with no impertinence or ill will Mike. These are sincere quandry I find myself with on this topic.

[kingoftheforest]

I understand your point of view on this but, the fact of the matter is that the people that lived in this area were willing to group together to fight off people taking there lands. When they fought against the British nobody said anything either. Because people were bennifiting from Britain being there, not the nomads of course, but somebody was.

Now these people didn't want the Zionists migrating to thier lands. What if the people of Mexico decided thier government sucked and they wanted to migrate to the U.S.? What if they tried to take land by force? We would retaliate wouldn't we?

The Palestinians may have been nomads and had no central government but they seemed to have been organized enough to know when the were being invaded. They were nomads because they knew the land wouldn't support too much life. They didn't want more people coming in. The nomads plans seemed to be contradictory to what big government wanted at the time and so they got burned. They still seem to be getting burned now. U.S. uses veto power at the U.N. for the first time in 2 years? To let Israel keep bombing people who fired back after being attacked.

You can't hit me in the face and yell "No hit backs", as I throw my punch, and yell that it's no far. No matter how much the Zionists wanted thier migration to seem benign the nomads knew that was competition for an already stretched set of resources. Yes indusrty and trade would relieve that, but these people seemed not to want to play those games. Now they got dragged into kicking and screaming.

I understand on some level how you can view Israel having rights here, but it was the nomads land plain and simple. Just cause they didn't put up a fence doesn't mean the property line wasn't there.

[Hardball]

I just left cnn.com. This conflict is psychotic as hell. They are bombing civillian targets that have nothing to do with the conflict. People and buildings. Little old ladies and children getting bombed. Rediculous.!!! Totally unreasonable and beyond any prudence.

[kingoftheforest]

I'd also like to point out that Operation Agatha were on .....

"On June 29, 1946, 17 thousand British soldiers fanned out all over the Jewish towns and kibbutzim to confiscate arms and documents and arrest the leaders of the Jewish community. The British government affirmed its determination to stamp out terrorism. In Jerusalem, the soldiers occupied the headquarters of the Jewish Agency, the de facto government of the Jewish "state within the state", and confiscated many documents that clearly established its close connections with the "terrorist headquarters" - the joint command of the Haganah, the Irgun and the Stern Group, which worked closely together at the time."...

now the British finaly left Israel shortly after ...

"King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bombing attack against the British government of Palestine by members of Irgun —a militant Zionist group. The Irgun exploded a bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which had been the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police). 91 people were killed, most of them civilians: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 other. Around 45 people were injured.

The attack was initially ordered by David Ben Gurion, who was in the United States. Both Ben Gurion and Menachem Begin, head of the Irgun, would later become Israeli Prime Ministers. The attack was commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi.

The attack on the hotel was the largest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate. Some claim this act should be considered in light of the escalating violence in the region and the conflict between the three main forces in the region: British, Jewish and Arab. In particular, the attack was made in retaliation for the British mass arrests Operation Agatha of June 29 1946, when British troops raided the Jewish Agency and confiscated large quantities of documents, such as information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. A large number of seized documents were taken to the hotel."


This is clearly gaining the land by terrorism. The Palastienians had nothing to do with the Jewish terrorist. Now it's wrong for the shoe to be on the other foot because nobody likes the people of Palestien? I don't agree with the methods being used but what other choice do these people have. To trust people who have lied and cheated them out before?

Seems to me these people are desperate because they have been backed into a corner.

[kingoftheforest]

Further complications

It seems that if world leaders would have paid attention there is a reason that there is no Jewish state in this area of the world.

"The earliest known mention of the name 'Israel', probably referring to a group of people rather than to a place, is the Egyptian Merneptah Stele dated to about 1211 BCE. [4] For over 3,000 years, Jews have regarded the Land of Israel as their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised land. The land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples, as well as the rites concerning those temples. [5] Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for more than a millennium.

Under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule, Jewish presence in the province dwindled due to mass expulsions. In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire resulted in the large-scale expulsion of Jews. It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land. The Mishnah and Jerusalem Talmud, two of Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in the region during this period. The Muslims conquered the land from the Byzantine Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Muslim states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517."

The only claim the jewish nation has to this land comes from a holy book. So now we come right back to this being a religious war. Since the desert nomads worship a diffrent god and don't believe in the Jewish version of the fairy tale they are to be penalized.

These people were expelled from thier land by religious context from what I can see here. What other claim does the Zionist nation have on that land?

[eXcessiveForce]

I have a question as to where this concept of a "measured Response" has come from.


I don't see the logic in expecting a measured response.

If you take two people, one is much larger physcially and stronger, and then you have a smaller weaker person. If the weaker person comes up and punches the larger in the face, why would anyone expect that the larger would simply hit the smaller person once in the face. That is not how life works. In a fight you go until the other person is finished, and hopefully long enough to deter them from trying it again.

So why would you expect Israel to not respond in a manner consistent with what people do. They were attacked, their people were killed and some were taken captive.

Where has this measured response ever been practiced? 9-11 destroyed some buildings vs. a country. Pearl Harbor vs. 2 cities.

Doesn't this just show, that there is a price to be paid, by those who will not renounce terror? Isn't this similar to those neighborhoods in the U.S. that allow gangs and drug dealers to roam their streets and never stand up too them?

I really am curious why this situation is different from other altercations.

[kingoftheforest]

I am still having trouble seeing how Israel was attacked first? Didn't they bomb a power plant first? I seem to have missed what the Lebanese and Palestinienes blew up in israel before that.

I do remember some captured Palestinien women and children who where supposed terrorists, before the solider thing came out.

[kingoftheforest]

Good points, all. XF, you're right, but as is so often the case when people preach "Do whatever it takes to win" and "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying," no one actually means it when it comes to nations. People will say all day long that they'd poke out your eyes and stab you in the throat with a bic pen if it meant surviving a streetfight. They look at cheating and ambushing as something everyone should be ready and able to do to save their own lives. But when a nation does it that way? Oh! It's a "disproportionate" attack, then!

Well I can see where this is going already. So this is it in this argument for me I don't bite baited hooks. I have no time to starte arguing with some who wants to use his ability to talk so eloquently and insult me while covering it in a post like the one above.

KOTF, the Jews "only" claim to that area doesn't come from the Bible, either. It is historical fact that Jews were common all across that area - as were Christians - for thousands of years. There was a measure of "peaceful co-existence" for a long, long time. I'll let you do the research to figure out who killed them and threw them out, who made them into slaves, and who banished them from their homes. It's not biblical verse, man. It's world history 101. But again, you're more inclined to believe it if you do the research yourself. Ask yourself where the Jews came from that Egypt used as slaves for so long? Where did they go after escaping Egypt? Once they got there, who threw them out? Do you think they just moved on from Egypt to Poland and Germany? Things started to change in the 7th century for the Jews in "Palestine." You can decide why after some research.

As for reasearch I just posted what I found reasearching. This has been a subject of intrest for me for some time. I have put forth what I have to say and I am done. Everyone can use thier own judgement and reasearch to form thier own opinions I'm not on here to win votes.

[kingoftheforest]

I'm often fine and sometimes dandy but never fine AND dandy

Like I said it's ok I said what I needed to say on this subject. Thank you for the PM offer but I think everything is fine as it stands. Once again I have put my findings out here for others.


Thank you for your time.
KOTF

[Blue Wave Gym]

LOL Hezballah (Party of God) LOL LOL LOL LOL

Say by by murders!!! finaly justice for our fallen marines and Justice for Higgin's and Buckley's family, may god be with all of our men who died there and may he reap his vengence upon the evil doers who killed them.

[Hardball]

All this freaking Bloodshed and destruction and the freaking media is worried about Mr. Bush using the word Sh**i***t. Give me a break!!!

[Hardball]

O.k. now did anybody notice how the media announced the Israllie Ambush on Hezobolla the day before it was scheduled. Of course everyone knows ambush means suprise attack; well since our gracious media announced the
Ambush a day early--the actual ambush itself was unsuccessful. Just another example of how the media screws around with innocent lives.