Need advice on muscle growth

[freefighter2010]

Guys,

No matter how much I eat meat, rice, vegetables and workout using heavy weights i can never put on muscle mass. I dont even put on fat !!. Its like i got this high metabolic rate and when i do eat more meat. I just seem to go to the toilet and excrete it.

Do you think steriods could work for me ?. I am in the UK so I GUESS certain steriods are banned.

Thanks,

FF

[parsec1982]

Bodybuilding.com......

Hello,

There are a lot of FREE Hardgainer/Skinny Guy Diets on Bodybuilding.com. Here is the link. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbin...=MassGainDiets

...and they have Hardgainer Workouts too: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbin...orkoutPrograms

Just look for articles that have the word HARDGAINER, ECTOMORPH or SKINNY in their title. There is plenty to read & learn Let us know how things workout for you....

Good Luck,
Parsec

[Guest]

Guys,

No matter how much I eat meat, rice, vegetables and workout using heavy weights i can never put on muscle mass. I dont even put on fat !!. Its like i got this high metabolic rate and when i do eat more meat. I just seem to go to the toilet and excrete it.

Do you think steriods could work for me ?. I am in the UK so I GUESS certain steriods are banned.

Thanks,

FF

I hear you brother. I am the ectomorph’s ectomorph, from a long line of long thin men, the original hard gainer.

In my 20’s I tried pretty much every workout program, diet and supplement you can think of. Nothing worked for my lifestyle, the approaches are mostly unrealistic to anyone who isn’t a professional athlete. The kind of “hard gainer” workouts and diets you find in Bodybuilding magazines and websites are designed for people who don’t have a job, or a life, but have an endless supply of money.

I was once sent a hard gainer’s diet that demanded I eat all kinds of wonderful meat and vegetable dishes 7 times a day. Yeah, thing is I spend most of my days in meetings, on the phone or giving presentations. “Excuse me gentlemen, but before we move on to agenda point 4, I just need to boil some brown rice and fillet this tuna”. At one point I think my food bill was about £800 a month, and my supplements bill was about half that. All the plans also recommended complete rest in between heavy weights workouts, yeah problem there is I have about six different martial arts systems to progress in, so I can’t sit around eating egg whites 4 nights a week.

So in the end I thought balls to it. I’m 32, 6ft 1in, 75kg and about 7% body fat. I think that’s pretty good shape, I hit hard, have good core strength, and good isometric strength. You’ve got to work with what you have, and be happy with who you are. As it turns out, my weight and build have proven to be my greatest asset in the world of Boxing, there aren’t many middleweights built like me.

So after years of going to the toilet about 4 times a day, crapping out hundreds of pounds worth of food and supplements, I thought what a waste of life. Like Mr Schwarzenegger said – you can’t fight your genetics.

[Ghost]

The problem comes down to trying to make bodybuilding diets work for martial artists.
This is where i really feel martial arts falls flat on its face, there isnt enough written or looked into regarding diets for martial artists.

Quite simply though you need a ton more carbs than a bodybuilder does and a bodybuilding diet doesnt translate at all well for a martial artists looking to bulk up. If anything you will probably shrink on it.

higher levels of protein are not so much needed as higher levels of carbs though you should be getting a good amount of protein in and good fats + nutrients.

Taking the above into consideration gaining weight/muscle, providing you do some training that will stimulate growth, is a simple equation of taking in more calories than you put out.
Thats scientific fact and not debatable. If you arent growing you arent eating enough and probably not enough carbohydrate if you are a martial artist.
I am very careful with what i eat and need about 10,000 calories a day to grow.

EDIT:
you can do it cheaply, tesco do oats for 38p per kilo and you can add fat to your diet to ramp up calories as well as fat is calorie dense.
Try eating really alot more.

[Guest]

10,000 calories a day?!? Jesus mate, you certainly do get your oats!!

Thats all great advice, no arguments with any of it as I have seen it work for other people so I know you are right. I worked with a nutritionist who looked at my diet and said the problem was simple, I just needed about 4,000 more calories a day, which I did. But here is the problem......

What happens, when all you do is shit it out? Food flies through me at 100 miles an hour, I can't be absorbing the benefits, and I used to lose so much water and salt through the runs - so it had the opposite effect. Could that be a wider metabolic problem, a thyroid problem, or maybe a wider digestive issue? (no biscuit jokes please)

[Ghost]

10,000 calories a day?!? Jesus mate, you certainly do get your oats!!

Thats all great advice, no arguments with any of it as I have seen it work for other people so I know you are right. I worked with a nutritionist who looked at my diet and said the problem was simple, I just needed about 4,000 more calories a day, which I did. But here is the problem......

What happens, when all you do is shit it out? Food flies through me at 100 miles an hour, I can't be absorbing the benefits, and I used to lose so much water and salt through the runs - so it had the opposite effect. Could that be a wider metabolic problem, a thyroid problem, or maybe a wider digestive issue? (no biscuit jokes please)

I wouldnt have thought it to be a problem, depends entirely what you were eating, to up calories you could massively increase fat intake. If you really struggle, this may sound odd, you can eat ice cream, low GI but very high calorie. you are likely to absorb most of what you eat though water intake may suffer if its giving you the runs.
Food nutrients are absorbed in the upper intestine, before it solidifies in the lower intestine where water is absorbed. THough you may lose some benefits.

I would expect that at your height that 4000 calories isnt enough, im 6 foot but 90kg ( i do alot of weights) and i need alot of calories in order to do the cardio + martial arts training + conditioning/weights training and gain still.
4000 is low, thats what a bodybuilder would eat on a bulk who did something like 3 X 30 minute cardio sessions a week, not a martial artist.

Id shoot for 6000 for now for someone your height and doing martial arts, to start with. Not growing is always a case of not eating enough if the training is right.
You have to think, someone your size is easily using 2500 cals a day if you just sat on your ass and did nothing whatsoever. So you have 1500 or to fuel your movement during the day add in some martial arts and any weights and any other training and you can see you can smash through the 4000 cal barrier in no time.

Im rambling a little but the runs can be caused by the diet change especially if you added things like whey protein?

Diet is something im fairly big on in relation to my training and in my experience alot, not all, nutritionists are lost when it comes to martial arts because it is fairly unique in its requirements in terms of nutrition.
This is often due to them not being a seasoned martial artist or if they are having never attempted to bulk up. Most often they hear " i want to bulk" or " i want to cut/lose weight" and they go from there with a small allowance for what you actually do.

I wouldnt be suprised if you were given a bodybuilding diet.
What i did was read up on bodybuilding diets, then read up on cardio.endurance diets and put them both together, hey presto it works, i grew like a weed.

Its natural after what you have experienced to feel you are a hard gainer or have some sort of metabolic issue but the likelyhood is that you were simply given bad advice with poor food choices/meal timings etc.
If you want a i can put up a sample day if you like for what i would have for 6k calories

[Guest]

That would be superb mate, thank you. Please bear in mind that, whether I like it or not, a lot of the calories will have to be taken on the move. Unfortunately, my job keeps me busy from about 7AM to 7PM, so the diet has to be easily accessible with minimum preparation. Thats my life unfortunately.

As it stands now I can't go above 75kg anyway, but I easily drop to below 70kg when I'm in hard training, and really struggle to pack the calories back on. So anything you could suggest for weight maintenance during pre-fight training, and calorie boost when weight starts to drop, would be a great help.

[Ghost]

That would be superb mate, thank you. Please bear in mind that, whether I like it or not, a lot of the calories will have to be taken on the move. Unfortunately, my job keeps me busy from about 7AM to 7PM, so the diet has to be easily accessible with minimum preparation. Thats my life unfortunately.

As it stands now I can't go above 75kg anyway, but I easily drop to below 70kg when I'm in hard training, and really struggle to pack the calories back on. So anything you could suggest for weight maintenance during pre-fight training, and calorie boost when weight starts to drop, would be a great help.

yeah ill do you something and post it up and show you how to change the calories of it too. tomorrow.

[Ghost]

Because you need to eat on the move alot i suggest you make alot of essentially the same thing, you can change this from day to day but you would have alot of the same thing on any given day. So ill give you 2 variations to give you an idea, with that you can probably work your own out too, the thing ill change is what you take to work each day, this means you can stock up on certain foods that are the same for breakfast dinner and after training and not worry too much about what you do each day but have enough variety as well

Use scales to be accurate with all measurements, you can weight out stuff on a sunday and freeze/leave in cupboard for the week.

A sample day 1

For breakfast you could have
80g of porridge in milk and
3 tbsp of honey
20g of whey in a glass with water or milk
this will be really quick to make in the morning.
----
Preparing your daytime work food.
Either upon waking or the night before measure out
350 - 400g of rice OR pasta, cook in a rice cooker.
200g of chicken/fish/pork/beef chopped up small
4 whole eggs

In a large frying pan, ideally a wok, fry the meat in 3 table spoons of olive oil and the eggs in 1 tablespoon in a small pan, add the eggs and rice/pasta to the wok, add salt, soy sauce,oyster sauce etc if you want and if you like it sweetcorn/mushrooms, veg etc use your imagination.

Box up in 4 Tupperware boxes.
This should last your 12 work hours, its quite a fair size of food but split up its not that bad.

Also, take with you 200g of nuts, any type you like salted cashews do it for me. eat these as a snack throughout the day randomly etc.
And, 4 pieces of fruit, you can eat these at any time in the day you like not just at work.
------
Dinner when you get home.

150g pasta add a sauce from a tin/packet + lots of fresh veg/salad OR simply make 150g more of your work day food in the morning and eat what is left now.
200g ice cream of your choice

TRAIN

After training
100g oats + 3 tbsp honey + 20g Whey


Bed

In all that will give you 5700cals a day (ish) and 220g protein.

You need to experiment and find the calorie level at which you bulk and the level at which you maintain and the level at which you lose weight.

ADJUSTING CALORIES ON A SMALLER SCALE.
If you are trying hard to hit certain weights you may want to simply make small adjustments to your calories, say within 1000 cals either way.
The easy thing to alter here initially is the portion size of the nuts in the day time or the ice cream in the evening. This is how i do it when im in the right ball park calorie wise. The nuts give you 1200 cals a day, so you can drop them down easily, 600 cals per 100g. Ice cream look on the side of the pot. The diet is 90%+, clean.

Additional supps.
5-10g fish oils a day would be good. you certainly wont need vitamin supplements or anything like that.


Sample day 2

Ill use the same breakfast but you can improvise something similar.

For breakfast you could have
80g of porridge in milk and
3 tbsp of honey
20g of whey in a glass with water or milk
this will be really quick to make in the morning.

For the day.
We are going to make 4 triple decker sandwhiches.
Ideally you would use granary bread for this presliced. 12slices
Fry 4 eggs individually, stick them at the side on a plate.
fry 200g of meat cut into strips in some olive oil
One piece of bread put the egg on, stick a bit of cheese on top to melt if you like, then add a bit of veg, such as lambs lettuce, rocket, water cress, you get the idea, then one slice of bread, 1/4 of the meat with mayo if you like and a bit of ketchup if you want.and a bit more veg. Last bit of bread goes on top
Make this 4 times over. wrap to take to work.

Also take the 200g of nuts + 4 pieces of fruit.

Dinner and after workout repeat from the day before and after training.
THis day gives you about the same as the other day in terms of calories/protein.


You get the idea a bit now. just change around what you take to work for the variety. yoghurt,potatoes whatever you like that is reasonably sensible. use www.fitday.com, enter all food values yourself in custom foods. soon you wont need to do this anymore wiht a few weeks experience you will just know and it becomes quick and easy.


WHAT TO SHOOT FOR WITH YOUR DAY TIME WORK FOOD
not including the nuts and the fruit, just the stuff like the sandwhiches or rice
2500 cals
80-130g protein. 120 is about spot on though as its a 12 hour period

[Guest]

Thank you so much for taking that amount of time to write all that down for me, I really appreciate it.

You have hit the nail on the head, because preparing food that way and taking it to work in that manner will be easy and convenient for me. As you say, I will use my imagination in terms of different flavours etc, and mix it up so I don’t get bored. I will monitor the amounts and make sure I don’t creep over 75kg, but with my metabolism I doubt it. What I do think this diet will do for me is maintain my weight a lot better at where it needs to be, but also give me a boat load more energy and nutrients than I get right now- which will only help my athletic output. In addition, as you say, this is a very clean diet – I do sometimes fall into the habit of eating processed food.

Many thanks again Ghost and I will let you know how I get on.

[Ghost]

Thank you so much for taking that amount of time to write all that down for me, I really appreciate it.

You have hit the nail on the head, because preparing food that way and taking it to work in that manner will be easy and convenient for me. As you say, I will use my imagination in terms of different flavours etc, and mix it up so I don’t get bored. I will monitor the amounts and make sure I don’t creep over 75kg, but with my metabolism I doubt it. What I do think this diet will do for me is maintain my weight a lot better at where it needs to be, but also give me a boat load more energy and nutrients than I get right now- which will only help my athletic output. In addition, as you say, this is a very clean diet – I do sometimes fall into the habit of eating processed food.

Many thanks again Ghost and I will let you know how I get on.

OK no probs, but dont be scared of that bit of ice cream in there. really nothing wrong with that considering the rest is very clean, plus some sat fats are useful for certain hormones and other body functions + it tastes nice.
Mess about wiht the meat and carb source, change cal levels with the nuts. Should be good for you. good luck.

[kanik]

Yeah I cant put on weight for crap... I can eat more in one meal than any one person in my house does in a day. Or another exmple... In a day I eat more than any two people in my household often people look at me like I am some sort of monster with what I eat, and I still dont put on weight. I lose weight if I skip ONE meal by accident. Grrrrr!!! Cursed fast metabolism!!!

[Ghost]

Yeah I cant put on weight for crap... I can eat more in one meal than any one person in my house does in a day. Or another exmple... In a day I eat more than any two people in my household often people look at me like I am some sort of monster with what I eat, and I still dont put on weight. I lose weight if I skip ONE meal by accident. Grrrrr!!! Cursed fast metabolism!!!

Again this comes back to perceptions of what a large amount of food is.
Ask a really fat person what they eat and " i dont eat that much, it must be my slow metabolism"
Ask a really thin person what they eat and "i eat LOADS and i cant put on weight/muscle"
Now with the fat person you KNOW they are lieing or just dont know what a normal portion is so.......you get me?

Metabolic rates in humans vary between about 1500-2500 in men.
As a base of what a male needs to tick over ie in bed all day.
You dont get guys with 4000 calorie a day requirements at rest.

If you look at the calories in food, you probably arent eating all that much.
In volume it may be a reasonably amount.

For instance, in the diet i made for michael there, the amount of rice in cooked weight is about 1-1.2Kg. THats a fair volume of rice. Calorie wise though its only 1200 calories, thats less than a big mac meal from Mcds.
But in volume it makes 4 meals. Conversely ice cream or chocolate is packed with calories and a fat person doesnt need to eat loads to have a huge calorie intake.

If you were to accurately work out the calorie count of what you eat it would be lower than you think. Metabolic rates just dont vary THAT much, what does vary is people perceptions of what large portions of food are.

[kanik]

But I can (and have) have a whole week of lying around, doing nothing much in particular, playing video games, listening to ACDC, etc. etc. while eating the same amounts if not more, AND I dont eat food with low calories either, I'll stick a chunk of butter in my noodles pumped with cheese and some olive oil, stack on the bullshit ya know? It doesnt matter what I eat... I MIGHT put on a 2-3 kgs at most. But I guess my body is good in the sence that I cant really lose much more than 2-3 kgs too.... Also no matter how much stronger I get (eg. Be able to up my weights, do a bunch more reps, more pull-ups... somthing) I dont put on weight, my muscle just kinna tones and might get slightly bigger.

[Ghost]

But I can (and have) have a whole week of lying around, doing nothing much in particular, playing video games, listening to ACDC, etc. etc. while eating the same amounts if not more, AND I dont eat food with low calories either, I'll stick a chunk of butter in my noodles pumped with cheese and some olive oil, stack on the bullshit ya know? It doesnt matter what I eat... I MIGHT put on a 2-3 kgs at most. But I guess my body is good in the sence that I cant really lose much more than 2-3 kgs too.... Also no matter how much stronger I get (eg. Be able to up my weights, do a bunch more reps, more pull-ups... somthing) I dont put on weight, my muscle just kinna tones and might get slightly bigger.

Post up an accurate days food then with amounts, its scientifically impossible to not gain weight if you eat enough calories.
Its as unsound as saying that if you never ate anything you would never lose weight, of course you would and eventually you would die. How long you stick at high calorie days and how many lower calorie days you have also make a difference.

Also, noodles and butter is junk food, is most of your diet based on junk food?