Pushups for muscle endurance ?

[kungfupanda]

dont be foolish!!! all workouts will carry over to your martial arts because you DO martial arts. for instance, if you gain 25 pounds on your bench press...that WILL carry over to your martial arts because you are going to practice and get those muscles up to quota and you will reap the benefits of more power and speed.

you are talking about body builders. shut up.

i am talking about martial artist. training your art and keeping your muscles flowing is what we do. no "new" muscle gain is all that functional. it has to get used to the new functions you want it to do. it can be seen as something of a process.

1. Workout (bench press ect.)
2. Build new muscle.
3. practice so that new muscle can get used to your martial art.
4. reap the benefits of that new power and speed.

dont be a fag and nitpick and twist what i say. where did you get that bodybuilder crap? thats an intirely different hobby or whatever. it is obvious that a huge bodybuilder is gonna suck at martial arts. but a martial artist that does some bodybuilding is gonna reap benefits for sure. Duh those muscles arent gonna be punching cannons right of the bench press but you have to treat them the same as the rest and teach the nerves and new tissues to become more effective.

and to be frank: ALL WORKOUTS CARRY OVER TO YOUR MARTIAL ARTS IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. For better or for worse is up to you.

[ryanhall]

dont be foolish!!!

No, it seems as if you've got the market cornered on that.

dont be a fag and nitpick and twist what i say

Explain to me, oh wise high school student, how calling you on an incorrect blanket statement is nitpicking or 'being a fag.'

all workouts will carry over to your martial arts because you DO martial arts

Do all of my daily activities 'carry over' or aid me in my ability to drive a car simply because I drive a car? Your logic would suggest that you believe so.

i am talking about martial artist. training your art and keeping your muscles flowing is what we do. no "new" muscle gain is all that functional. it has to get used to the new functions you want it to do. it can be seen as something of a process.

I wish I knew all of this when I was 17. Where are you pulling this information from? Added muscle does not have a brain in it--you do not have to teach it what to do. You don't need to practice walking properly after adding 50 lbs to your leg press. My post was directed at the difference between body building and performance enhancing weight lifting. But you knew that already, right?

where did you get that bodybuilder crap? thats an intirely different hobby or whatever

It has nothing to do with 'that hobby or whatever.' It is a method of training that involves isolation exercises among a number of other things. My point was that this method of training can be counterproductive and should be avoided. By the way, you should make sure not to miss English class this week--your grammar could use a bit of work.

Duh those muscles arent gonna be punching cannons right of the bench press but you have to treat them the same as the rest and teach the nerves and new tissues to become more effective

Did you even read my post? My point was this: simply being able to lift an appreciable amount of weight in a set exercise does not necessarily grant one functional strength. Nothing more.

As far as you go, Panda, you are unable to carry on an intelligent conversation without resorting to name calling, whining, or other childish nonsense. Grow up.

[epimetheus]

Ooo, I am obviously outwitted and outmatched by your stunning intelligence. The top strength coaches of the world are all wrong and you are obviously right. Tank Abbott has a 600 lb bench press and I guarrentee he didn't get it from doing 500 pushups. He doesn't know what he is doing though, he is doing bodybuilding right?

Strength has a carryover, and doing low reps with high wieght is not bodybuilding, it is POWERLIFTING and STRENGTH TRAINING.

Being able to do 500 pushups has minimal carry over to strength or endurance in punches or any other activity. Having more motor unit activation (strength)can benifit much more.

Here, read some literature on the subject-

http://www.weightsnet.com/Docs/martial.html

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/pavel.html

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/get_articles.php?cat=Strengthening

http://www.prepareforcombat.com/mik-12.html

http://www.strengthcats.com/strengthfundamentals.htm

Spouting crap that doing 500 pushups somehow benifits because you heard it from some guy at the dojo is stupid. Look at the top of the field. Look at the champions of the UFC and MAA. See how they train, then look how far your friend in the dojo has gotten on his training and tell me which is better. Tell me which one can be verified by science and common sense. Tell me again how you think doing pushups for endurance is going to carry over, and tell me how getting stronger isn't going to carry over?

[epimetheus]

Originally posted by ryanhall

. Just take a look at a bodybuilder who throws his back out taking in the groceries. It happens.

Really? Have a cite for this? Are you a doctor that treats thrown lumbar discs in bodybuilders injured from picking up a 3lb grocery bags often?

[terry]

Egads, a flame war. Well, my perspective is that you have two different methods between power lifting and body building. When you are bodybuilding you tend to isolate muscle groups whereas with power lifting you work on using many different muscle groups simultaneously to add to a lift. And, to the extent you train to failure, in bodybuilding you produce failure through fatigue whereas in power lifting you produce failure through straining.

Epi and I may have a disagreement on the value of straining (which is something your body needs to learn to do) versus the detriment of failure when straining (which I haven't looked into...yet.)

As far as all weight training benefitting martial arts, the question is hard to evaluate as an extreme or absolute statement. In my mind, the real question is which training methods produce a better result when doing cross training for martial arts. I would argue that the multi-muscle whole body exercises, fashionable in the 1930s with the Germans and revived by the Russians in the 60s and just being discovered by the Americans, have a better return on their investment. Kettlebell training falls into this category as does one of my favorites, dragging a sled.

To put it conversely, consider a guy who has developed muscle strength in individual, isolated muscles but hasn't learned how to engage many muscle groups simultaneously and explode with speed. (This fits the description of most bodybuilders.) They're don't perform so well in other sports. (They also don't have the tendon strength from straining under heavy loads either, but that's another topic.) I have put the gloves on with a bunch of them and can tell you that they have trouble bringing a bunch of muscles together into one explosive blow--that isn't how they train.

As far as training pushups for endurance, I don't know. The last time I got serious about training a specific muscle group for endurance was my quads and gluts in bicycling. To do that you need like 5 hours in the saddle a day with a lot of speed and variability, but still a lot of hours. I've never seen anybody try to do this with pushups. What I can tell you is that olympic swimmers, who would be a reasonable candidate for needing arm endurance, don't train this way.

[epimetheus]

I agree, a bodybuilder does not instinctivly know how to utilize his muscle for optimal power. Bodybuilders though train for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy- builds intercellular fluid and non-contractile proteins, which do not influence muscle force production where as powerlifters, practitioners of plyometrics and general strength trainers focus more on building overall strength through synaptic facilitation, intramuscular coordination and sarcomere hypertrophy. In other words, strength athletes go for strength (and many times avoid muscle growth all together, weight classes etc) and bodybuilders build up worthless muscle tissue for size and impressiveness. Of course some strength gains do happen, just not as efficently.

Having strength doesn't mean you can hit hard either. However, having more strength and training properly does. This is something people tend to overlook. That and equating lifting weights with bodybuilding.

As for the training to failure- I agree that failure due to excessive loads can stimulate CNS adaptation and is benificial in building up strength. Failure due to exhastion is IMO pretty worthless- I should note that incorperating this could be benificial, though a routine that is built upon the premise of failure will fail.

I too trained for endurance for my legs for mountain biking purpouses, and it had very little carry over to playing BBall on the court or racketball (squash), nor did it help with my distance running. (or in being able to do more reps)

In marine boot camp we were forced to do pushups in large quantities- sometimes even 100+, several times a day. Sit ups and pull ups as well. You know how much that carried over into my weight lifting? I could do 100 push ups and still could barely bench press 100 lbs when I started. In other words- not at all, or very minimal carryover. Now that I can bench over 200 can I do 200 pushups? Nope, still only around 70.

I do believe that properly trained a large bodybuilder will have an advantage over a smaller, weaker oponent. Why? Size and strength are a very important factor. Why the hell else do you think they have weight classes in combat sports. (among others)


All else being equal, skill and size, the stronger opponent will win, hands down. Strength training is vital.

[James Bullock]

Terry,

Westside training methods are top notch, I use them quite a bit myself. I rotate from power lifting to strongman training and vice versa.

As far as functional strength is concerned the actual exercises you do need to have intermuscular coordination. Using the muscles in a chain or "team" as Ryan said it.

Bodybuilding type workouts really have no place whatsoever when training for functional strength. Individuals such as Eugene Sandow and Arthur Saxon NEVER trained to failure and all they had was functional strength.

Regards,

[epimetheus]

Originally posted by James Bullock
Bodybuilding type workouts really have no place whatsoever when training for functional strength. Individuals such as Eugene Sandow and Arthur Saxon NEVER trained to failure and all they had was functional strength.

Regards,

exactly! For those interested in the difference between functional strength and non-functional hypertrophy and what optimal hypertrophy is read these links:

http://www.ironmag.com/tw_functional_hypertrophy.html

http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/hypertrophy.txt

[terry]

Very interesting links. That's a lot of material go examine. First off, I notice that my rest intervals are smaller than described in that article. I'm usually doing 30 second rest intervals for speed work (e.g., 3 sets of 10 at 55% of 1 RM) and 2 minute intervals for max work (e.g., 3 sets of 1 at 100% of 1 RM or less if I can lift w/ no assist from spotter). Is there any literature on inter-set recovery time?

I haven't seen to much discussion of time under tension (TUT) as opposed to number of reps. The Westside guys go for a slow, controlled downstroke with lots of tension followed by an explosive fast upstroke. Any more comments on this?

James, I don't know much about strongman training. Do you have any references?

Heh, it didn't turn out to be a flame-fest after all...

Terry

[epimetheus]

A high TUT is great for developing the slow twich muscle fibers- I believe the first link had something on it. (second post) It can help to cause muscle growth and I suppose add to some strength, certainly not the explosive kind of strength martial artists are seeking. I would advise a low TUT, similar to what WSB supports- a bit like a 2 up 3 down. Some would say a pause at the top, and I would suggest a half a second pause at the bottom.

Some links for strongman training-

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=77

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ (misc articles, some on strongman, some on WSB)

Also check out this web page- A former martial artist gone strongman, just starting out in the proffessionals. He has pictures and videos of many of his lifts and equipment.

http://www.clintdarden.com/

[epimetheus]

Interesting- reading some of the articles on deepsquater.com on the strongman competition training brought me into view of conflicting information on endurance training, specifically high rep weight training. Perhaps it does have its benifits that could carry on in martial arts. Though I wouldn't recommend ONLY training that way.

[kungfupanda]

come on ryan you are guilty of all the things you accuse me of! now get this, im right, you are wrong, screw you.

what do you mean you dont have to "teach" your muscles and nervous system to do stuff? were you born knowing how to punch?? no.

maby YOU didnt read MY post. i said every workout you do is gonna cary over in one way or another and that is true no matter how you twist it. bringin up that car drivin crap, shut up.

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and guys...if you can do 500 push ups then that is pretty sweet. it does give you alot of endurance (of which tank abbot hath none) and good strength (of which tank abbot has much).

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man...

[kungfupanda]

"""Did you even read my post? My point was this: simply being able to lift an appreciable amount of weight in a set exercise does not necessarily grant one functional strength. Nothing more. """

Duh! (but it still carries over in some form) but you have to reteach that "new" muscle!!

anyway...that is a moot point...sounds like you got that out of the blue somewhere. no one is all that against you on that. but benching 500 pounds will garuntee you a hard punch. like that abbot dude. sure he sucks at fighting but he sure punches hard.

[terry]

Um, we were actually having a pretty constructive conversation here, son. Can you take this offline?

[James Bullock]

Terry,

I will get you some links for the strong man training as soon as possible. This type of training does wonders for every aspect of your martial arts training....and is quite fun is well. As a matter of fact I have a strongman competition this weekend.

Regards,

James