death

[Kingston]

...i can tell you this. If there was NO chance that a knife in my gut would kill me...it would probably make a good party trick!!

Fearing a knife in your gut is fear of death in my opinion.

I dont think people fear death of old age though....its more the premature death. Perhaps a violent death is more frightning.

Allot of people relate pain and death....."it hurt so much i thought i was going to die"

Lets face it, allot of the time pain/feer/death all happens at the same time.

It is hard to die without some kind of suffering before hand. Mental or physical.

It is possible to overcome to fear of death....but in those cases, it is a trial of will power (and one that is an on going struggle) or there is some force that is more powerfull then your fear of death that is guiding you.

This could be a depression, or sence of honor or duty.

[grubbogoppoly]

I personally don't believe that death is what most people fear. It is the things associated with death that most people fear. Are you afraid of death or the knife stuck in your gut. Just a thought.

[jukado1]

fear of death.

There is a differance between "fear of death" and "awareness of death" the awareness devlopes (common sense) boy, is that ever an oxymoren, awareness causes us to wear a seatbelt when driving a car, or look both ways when crossing a street. but when you drive a car do you sit there white knuckles on yhe steering wheel, or do you concentrate on driving? if you ask a race driver, they know the dangers they face, but when driving they commit to concentrating on driving, if they were focased on the danger they face, they could not safely drive, they totaly commit to driving at that point. in self-defense and fighting we need that same focas.

[Keeper]

Black Swann,

good luck in your training and in life. The martial arts can take you far (as you know).

Keeper

[Black Swann]

Hi Guys

This is kind of the thing that got me into martial arts. Back when I was younger I was jumped on in the street by a few older lads, drunk of course who found it prudent to put me into hospital on a ventilator for a few weeks and physical and emotional scars to prove it.

I can definately identify with this thread. If not for this I would not have taken up Karate, Aikido, Jiu Jutsu and Tai Chi. Having seen what defeat, ridicule and helplessness had to offer I hated it and decided to do something about it.

I feel more alive when I am training than at any other time. Anyway im going to stop blithering on now...

Thanks for reading....

[mr. bond]

of course we do fear death, but we can't get so wrapped up in the possibility of death that we can't go out to a bar because there may be a drunk with a knife that could kill us or we can't walk down a street at night without fear.

in a combat situation, you have to keep your mind on the combat itself and not the possibility that you may die or be injured.

[Crouchtig]

i don't conciously fear death. i see it as like sleeping: youve had a whole day in which to do things, its been fun but now your tired. why not end the day and go to sleep? (replace day with life and sleep with death).
But on an instinctive level, i have evolved to avoid death wherever possible.
I try desperately not to die but i dont really fear death.
its more fun to live than to die
but if your going to die anyway why not now?

im afraid that was all a bit fragmented and unorganised.
thats how my brain works
always jumping about

[Jkd_SiLaT]

"Life isn't short, it just seems that way because we die forever"

[swan104]

I'm not sure if I fear death or pain more...

[eXcessiveForce]

I think that if you simply say you no longer concern yourself with the possiblity of death so people will understand better.


As a martial artist we are constantly asking our bodies to take risks, to work through fear to accomplish a goal. There is a difference between not wanting to die and not fearing death. If you accept that death is inevitable then the only question is when. If you decide it does not matter when. You can effectively no longer fear death. This does not mean you seek death.

Samurai were trained to Seek Death, to put themselves in situations that might lead to their deaths.

In most of the world people fight to survive.

Between the two which is more dangerous, a person who seeks death with single minded purpose or those who seek to survive.

There is a story that I will briefly try to tell. I forget where it came from.

There was a tea master that upset a local sword fighter. The tea master was scared so he went to a master swordsman to ask to be trained. After the first day the swordmaster said there was no way he could train the Tea Master to win the fight and that he would die. The Tea master was sad a feared he would die the next day. He thanked the master swordsman for his help and out of gratitude wanted to perform the tea ceremony for him.

While the tea master went through the tea ceremony, the same one that he had done thousands of times. The Master Swordsman said "thats it." "if you can look tomorrow the way you do right now you will win." The tea master did not understand but said he would do what he was told.
The next day when the local sword fighter approached he looked into the tea master's eyes and stopped. He stood for a time and then said he would not fight the tea master because he feared that the tea master would kill him.

The point of the story is The tea master was confident when he performed the tea ceremony, he was in control. By looking upon the sword fighter with the same gaze he was able to psych out the local sword fighter.


Had the local sword fighter had the "resolute exceptance of death" it would not have mattered. He still would have attacked expecting to die. But since the fighter feared for his own safety he lost the battle before it was begun.


If in every altercation you give up the desire to survive then you will die. But if you give up your fear of not surviving you will be a much better weapon.

Death is the outcome of life, there is no reason to fear death nor is there a reason to fear life. One simply acts in the moment.

In a life or death altercation who has time to worry about the future (to worry about dying, a future outcome) A true warrior must act in the moment, act with singleness of purpose, To be victorious over their attacker or die in the attempt. THose are the only two outcomes As Musashi said "it is a disgrace to die with a weapon untried." THe single minded purpose will drive you to defeat your enemy.

If you are fighting for survival you may hesitate to do something more risky even though that may be the only thing that saves your life. Remove the fear and be prepared to do what ever it takes to win.

When in life or death combat, pain is irrelevant, fear is irrelevant, Death is irrelevant. The only thing that matters are the actions you take at that moment which will dictate what the outcome will be.

To paraphrase Lombardi, We have never lost, we simply ran out of time.

[Kingston]

intresting post keeper. but accepting death as a part of life (in my opinion) is not the same as not fearing death, or having "no fear of death."

thinking logicaly is a part of being human, though some people have a scewed interpretation of what they would consider logical actions. (that wasn't directed towards you impaticular)

logic is what helps us overcome the fear of death (in cases were death is not likely) such as bunjee jumping or something. Your "body" doesn't want to jump off a bridge, but your "logic/mind" allows you to overcome that natural instinct and jump. Even if you acepted the risks involved (you would be stupid not to.) Would that mean you no longer fear death? no.

its crazy to think your going to die everytime you leave the house. Its logical to accept that there may be some risks that could perhaps result in the end of your life if you leave the house.

if you "truely" care about something you dont want "harm" to come to it. if you care about your life, you would not want it to end.

The fear of death has alot to do with the unknown. People assume death will hurt, people fear hell ( ), people beleave death to be a very horrible thing.

the mind is able to accept death. i.e. force yourself to accept death, and to act in a logical manner. This is what bravery is, or selflis acts are.
your body on the other hand will always fear death, if you get in those situations adrenaline will start pumping, in some cases there is a great chance of being seriously traumatized by the event ("shell shock", post traumatic stress disorder). That is why you flinch at a suprise punch ect.

accepting death as a part of life is one thing. Having no fear of death is another.

fear of death is not always possitive, that is if it stops you from functioning "normaly", like being petrified of spiders or snakes.

if you didn't "fear" death you wouldn't feel a need to "be prepared" for it. You wouldn't think about it at all.

Not many people fear death 24 hours a day. right now i have no fear of death. i cant logicaly think of a way for me to die right now as i sit at my computer. But i still fear death......did that make any sense?

the fact that you would "want control of the knife" does not mean you dont fear death. Not fearing death would be at that point saying "ok iv had a good run" and patiently waiting for the knife wielder to kill you.

People have to power to become acustom to death, or have a view of the "bigger picture" and accept there mortality. That does not mean they dont "fear" death.

just a few thoughts.

[Keeper]

Not many people beleive me when I say I have no fear of death. As mentioned in above posts, the whole idea of somebody 'not having fear of his or her own death' is usualy thought of as being the same this as 'not possesing the instinct of self preservation'.

This is a mistake. Personaly, I have my self preservation instinct, I still jump out of the way when a motorcycle buzzes past or flinch when somebody goes to hit me. I can't cross a road without looking either way (well, I could but i sure as hell dont! lol) I understand the importance of myself still being alive. We all have people close to us we are responcible for.

However, I've had certain experiences that have led me to a new understanding of mortality. Concerning my own death, I'd say I've gained the ability to alow pure , cold logic to prevail over emotion or irational fear. Basicly, there are certain situations where me putting my life at risk would be the only option left in order to secure a desired outcome. Example: a crazy person has pulled out a huge blade in a public area, and is showing all signs that he's about to start hacking at people. I'm looking at the blade and my self preservation instinct is telling me, it's probly not a good idea to shove my face into it. Logic, fuled by self discaplin and self control say, gain control of the blade.

The reason for this? I expect to die constantly, in everything I do. Or at least, most of the time. Going to the store, climbing a ladder, getting in the shower, walking down the street - I don't expect to come back. Seriously. Despite my VERY young age, I've made basic arangments in the event of my death. Why not? We all have to go some time. It's a matter of self control and disaplin, a calm, understanding mind.

Sounds like some shaolin buddhist mumbo jumbo I'm sure. It should do, most of my spiritual studies are of buddhist schools anyway!

Sounds far fetched, but it's true. I have no problem with my own death, nor do I have a moral problem with taking the life of another should a situation require it. And beleive it or not, since gaining this new way of thinking and living, I've never been a happier person!

Love life, don't worry about death.

Oh and a little something on the subject of fear.....

Bravery isn't about not having fear. Not having any fear of anything is simply a psychological disorder. Bravery is doing the right thing in the presence of fear. This is kind of the basis of my personal philosophy.

Great thread guys!

Keeper

[reyjrar]

This is turning out to be a VERY interseting thread, so I must contribute something.

Fear of death is natural. However, you can't live as though it is constantly on your mind. Its not that you react without regard for the consequences, its more that you react with prior understanding and acceptance of the consequences. When I hear "fear of death" instantly my mind jumps to "am I satisfied with the life I have lived up til now?" I feel if you can answer that question with a "yes", sure death isn't "good", but you know you've lived, and that you must die, so if unavoidable, then you will accept it. I don't know if that makes any sense or not. But you can see where I'm going. One could transform "don't fear death" to "live in such a way that if you were to die at any point, you would die knowing you had lived."

In regards to extreme trauma, I'm currently reading an amazing book called "The Myth of Sanity: Divided Consciousness and The Promise of Awareness" by Martha Stout on just that topic. In the book she states something along the lines of this:

"If someone has suffered extreme trauma, they struggle to make a choice to live, or to die. If they make the choice to die, there is nothing that you can do to stop them from taking their own lives. However, if they choose to live, they choose to live in a way that most normal people are uncapable."


Also, hypnosis stuff. This book covers hypnosis a lot as well. It is used as a tool by many psychiatrists to help the victims of trauma recover by allowing them to remember, confront, and defeat the trauma that has caused them torment. I found interesting things regarding psychiatrists practicing hypnosis on patients suffering from "Disassociative Identity Disorder" (DID), which was previously named "Multiple Personality Disorder". There are several well documented cases were "alternate" personalities actually changed the appearance and other physiological attributes from the "original person". Crazy stuff like ppl who couldn't see without coke bottle glasses regularly, once switched posessed nearly inhuman vision without glasses. Also, regular people suffering from extreme allergies to "X" once switched, exhibited NO signs of allergic reaction to "X" even when exposed to "X" in abnormal volume. Even more enticing was the appearnace, or disappearance of scars on the subjects faces between personalities. Some ppl may think this is all freaky and disturbing, but for me it is proof of the amazing powers of the mind. It is also one of the major reasons I devote most of my time to mental training and delving deeper in to psychology. I have on numerous occassions, through meditation, which could be defined as a state of self hypnosis, done some pretty amazing things that without that change in mental state, I could not have done. I've got like a billion things to say about this stuff, but I'll stop now and see where the thread goes, if anywhere

I love this board...

-brad..

[eXcessiveForce]

in a real life altercation. The first person to worry about his personal saftey is the person who will lose.

When you have fear it clouds your mind it makes you hesitate it keeps you from doing those things that only a mad man would do.

Fight with a person who is mentally ill. You will see the superhuman strength that many hospital workers can attest to.

They don't worry about their saftey they react instinctively.

Your mind has barriers that keep you from doing thing that may injure you. But those barriers can be removed. Under hypnosis some people are able to do incredible things all because there brain is not getting in the way telling them that it can't be done.

A man who wishes to perserve his life will lose it.

[Kingston]

lol not fearing death is by no means a "good" thing.

lol yes it is possible to get to a point where you dont fear death.....problem is the reason for it is life aint worth living!

You have to go through some serious long time truma to get to that point, and whats left aint better then what was there in the first place.

we shouldn't fear death constantly, only when the need arises, im not afraid of droping dead right now, but i sure as hell care wether i live or die right now.

no fear of death is extremely unhealthy in my opinion. Those samurai were in the business of death so to speak, they had no lifes outside it.....they exepted it, and some were crazy enough to beleave they didn't fear it. You could even make the argument that the whole samurai class was based on the rejection of self preservation, honor was more important then there lives.

Samurai are a very unique group though.....

fear is what makes us human, conquering our fear is what makes us stronger, without fear, you've lost your humanity.

That is not a wonderfull thing.