teens in the martial arts

[pstevens]

I cant see how asking a student who has no interest in martial arts why he isnt showing any interest in learning martial arts, and suggesting they leave if they dont want to show some enthusiasm. Hurts your reputation, If you could explain to me how, that would be great.

I really hope you’re not as thick you make yourself out to be…. If every time you encountered an unmotivated student, you simply asked them to leave, what would it say about your school? I’ll tell you, since you don’t seem to understand; it says your ability as a mentor is less than impressive, your curriculum lacks adaptability, and in short, your school is incapable of delivering what you advertise – which is to transform kids into capable martial artists who are confident in their abilities.
Consider that every parent that you confess, “I can’t teach your kid,” will undoubtedly leave feeling you’re incompetent. They will tell other parents (affecting at least 400 other people according to statistics) and very soon you’ll be left without students or a school.
The bottom line is: if you don’t know how to motivate children, then you’d better learn how to do so. Take classes, ask professionals, but do something other than just tell them to get lost.

I got the complete opossite idea when you said there is no such thing as a school that puts the students needs over the reputation of your school. which is it exactly? .

That’s because you’ve never had to run a business or put forth the effort. You implied that I was too busy protecting my own reputation; I was merely telling you that if it comes down to a troubled student or my school, my school ALWAYS comes first!

changing your curriculum would change your reputation. You said before that this was an unheard of practice? .

If changing the way I taught improved my school, I would do it. If changing the “style” of my school would improve my school, I would seriously consider it. If changing ANYTHING in my school helped motivate troubled kids, I would definitely do it. We change for the sake of progress, not simply to change. And this is not an unheard of practice, nor did I suggest otherwise.

martial art school: The parents are coming to you with their kid. The kid has asked to be there and wants to learn self defence. (2 parties: the kid who has asked his parents to learn self defence and is now asking you, the parents supporting their kids decision and being there to help organise this, and you) you are providing a service for the kid.

daycare: The parents coming to you with their (general guess) under 10 year old kid, and the parents asking for you to look after their child for an ammount of time. (two parties: you and the parents; being that the young kid doesnt really have the maturity to make such a decision) you are providing the service for the parents.

The kid hasnt asked his parents if he can go to daycare.

as I said before I think we have a misunderstanding on the age of the kid, Im talking about 13-15 year old teens as mentioned by the maker of this thread.

you seem to be thinking about alot younger kids aswell? In which case my opinion wouldnt be so harsh as I understand completly how youger kids can lose interest quite quickly and dont have as long a attention span as older kids. you cant compare say a 7 year old to a 14 year old though, they are to completly different students. .

You really are OFF THE MARK HERE, my friend… My analogy was simply to show you that if either of these businesses, that cater to parents and their children, turned kids away each time they didn’t have an answer for troubled kids, they would be out of business soon. The success of a business depends on its ability to manage good and bad situations. I was NOT saying these businesses ran the same business model.

[JadeDragon]

You said it was a good idea to teach a teenager who isnt showing any interest in the art lethal techniques just to keep him around....Im sorry If my suprised reaction of an 18+ years experienced martial artist suggesting such an idea, made you feel bad.

I said or meant was to show those techniques to students that needed motivation not show it to students that weren't interested in learning. There is a differencr between a student that needs a little motivation vs. a student who isn't interested at all.

[KenshiRyan]

I didn’t mention “pressuring” them to stay nor did I say they “should” stay. My suggestion was to look for ways to motivate them through the curriculum. Perhaps it needs changes, etc… I consider this a primary objective over simply letting students go for 3 reasons:

1. You become aware of needed changes of your curriculum through constant research.

2. Should you encounter “unmotivated” kids again, you have a system in place.

3. Your school develops a better reputation; instead of one that can’t handle problems.

I got the complete oposite idea when you said there is no such thing as a school that puts the students needs over the reputation of your school.

which is it exactly? changing your curriculum would change your reputation. You said before that this was an unheard of practice?

[KenshiRyan]

Yes, different industry, but in principle - the same. Parents are coming to YOU to provide a service for their CHILDREN. There are certainly many commonalities: contracts, liabilities, service standards, etc… But I was merely making a comparison to show the importance of portraying a competent business.

martial art school: The parents are coming to you with their kid. The kid has asked to be there and wants to learn self defence. (2 parties: the kid who has asked his parents to learn self defence and is now asking you, the parents supporting their kids decision and being there to help organise this, and you) you are providing a service for the kid.

daycare: The parents coming to you with their (general guess) under 10 year old kid, and the parents asking for you to look after their child for an ammount of time. (two parties: you and the parents; being that the young kid doesnt really have the maturity to make such a decision) you are providing the service for the parents.

The kid hasnt asked his parents if he can go to daycare.

as I said before I think we have a misunderstanding on the age of the kid, Im talking about 13-15 year old teens as mentioned by the maker of this thread.

you seem to be thinking about alot younger kids aswell? In which case my opinion wouldnt be so harsh as I understand completly how youger kids can lose interest quite quickly and dont have as long a attention span as older kids. you cant compare say a 7 year old to a 14 year old though, they are to completly different students.

[KenshiRyan]

That’s why I don’t agree with your position on the school’s reputation. No reputation or incompetent reputation equals bad rep and no service; no service equals no school! Comprendre?

I cant see how asking a student who has no interest in martial arts why he isnt showing any interest in learning martial arts, and suggesting they leave if they dont want to show some enthusiasm. Hurts your reputation, If you could explain to me how, that would be great.

[KenshiRyan]

No need to be so harsh. As you say "like seriously WTF". Get a grip. It was only my opinion. And know I'm not an 18 year old martial artist......I'm a 35 year old martial artist thats been doing it for 18+ years. If your going to be rude at least get the facts straight (seriously WTF). Have a nice day.

You said it was a good idea to teach a teenager who isnt showing any interest in the art lethal techniques just to keep him around....Im sorry If my suprised reaction of an 18+ years experienced martial artist suggesting such an idea, made you feel bad.

[pstevens]

Dude were talking about the kid not having any interest in actuly doing martial arts, your saying you'd rather pressure them into doing somthing they obviously dont want to do too protect your "reputation", lawsuits? lol! Their wasting their time and their parents money aswell as your time; what Im saying is you sit them down and tell them "look do you really want to be here? cause your not showing much enthusiasm and I think its silly for you to waste your time and your parents money if your not that keen on training?".

I didn’t mention “pressuring” them to stay nor did I say they “should” stay. My suggestion was to look for ways to motivate them through the curriculum. Perhaps it needs changes, etc… I consider this a primary objective over simply letting students go for 3 reasons:

1. You become aware of needed changes of your curriculum through constant research.

2. Should you encounter “unmotivated” kids again, you have a system in place.

3. Your school develops a better reputation; instead of one that can’t handle problems.

Im not telling you to throw them out; Im not telling you to just abandon them fullstop.
I do think you should give them a firm warning though during training if they are causing a distraction by that i mean "Stop mucking around guys, if you arent interested in training and would rather gossip then go home and do it"

That was my impression… as was others.

A day care center is where the parents come to you for the service of taking care of their kid for a length of time who is unable to be left alone for that length of time, It is a complete different business to a martial art school.

A martial art school: The kid/teenager has talked to his parents about learning self defence or whatever, they have then arranged to have lessons at your school, this is what the teen has said they are interested in doing, If they then arent showing any interest in the martial art anymore then there is no point being there.

daycare center= kid has no choice being there

martial art school= kid has chosen to come

quite a different customer base..

Yes, different industry, but in principle - the same. Parents are coming to YOU to provide a service for their CHILDREN. There are certainly many commonalities: contracts, liabilities, service standards, etc… But I was merely making a comparison to show the importance of portraying a competent business.

That’s why I don’t agree with your position on the school’s reputation. No reputation or incompetent reputation equals bad rep and no service; no service equals no school! Comprendre?

[JadeDragon]

I disagree; Theres no point treating teenagers any different, if there not willing to participate then tell them to stop wasting there time and go elsewhere, its near to impossable to make a teenager do somthing they dont want to do so dont bother trying.
I also think teaching kids (especially ones that show no motivation and respect for the art) lethal techniques just to keep them in your gym training is possibly the stupidest thing you could ever do (like seriously what the f***), all your going to end up with is young adults who had no true interest in martial art to begin with knowing lethal techniques that their likely to use without any real thought getting them in the sh!t and possibly seriously hurting somone, you'll also get real arrogant types who use what theyve learnt to push their way round school etc etc so you'll just stuff everything up.

If they arent motivated tell them to leave and stop wasting your time and their's, focus your attention on young adults that show true interest and motivation to better themselves physically and mentally, and by mentally I mean generally maturing into a responsible and good person who will use what they've learnt properly, and not turn into some arrogant git.
Its these teens you wana work with and make better.

and this is coming from an 18 year old MA.

No need to be so harsh. As you say "like seriously WTF". Get a grip. It was only my opinion. And know I'm not an 18 year old martial artist......I'm a 35 year old martial artist thats been doing it for 18+ years. If your going to be rude at least get the facts straight (seriously WTF). Have a nice day.

[bumpus]

.
If not handled correctly there will one day be a student go out of the dojo with a belt around there waist that will not hold there pants up, and they will fall under pressure that they are not prepared for, if the teacher is not willing to hurt feelings.

If a teacher allows foolishness then there students will come out with the same.

You say it is not your school and if your superior will not back you, it would be best to leave and find a place that represents what you stand for, or start your own school if you feel that is your calling.

If you compromise what you know is right you fail, and mislead others.


bumpus
.

[KenshiRyan]

The REASON you risk possible lawsuits and everything else that can go wrong with opening a gym is to succeed your business. As such, the life-blood of your school relies on its reputation teach successfully.

Dude were talking about the kid not having any interest in actuly doing martial arts, your saying you'd rather pressure them into doing somthing they obviously dont want to do too protect your "reputation", lawsuits? lol! Their wasting their time and their parents money aswell as your time; what Im saying is you sit them down and tell them "look do you really want to be here? cause your not showing much enthusiasm and I think its silly for you to waste your time and your parents money if your not that keen on training?"

Actually, the same principle applies as a daycare. When you opened your doors you volunteered to provide a service. For that you’re responsible to some degree. True, they came to you for training, but you had the opportunity to say “yes” or “no.” That you allowed them into your facility and let them sign up, makes you legally and socially responsible for them while in your care. In fact, depending on your enrollment system, you could be sued for simply throwing someone out without a legitimate reason, other than that you thought they were slacking off. You would need a clause in your agreement that defines “slacking” and that defines your ability to throw them out. In most cases, it doesn’t come to this; but I’m simply saying it’s a possibility I’ve heard about before.

Im not telling you to throw them out; Im not telling you to just abandon them fullstop.
I do think you should give them a firm warning though during training if they are causing a distraction by that i mean "Stop mucking around guys, if you arent interested in training and would rather gossip then go home and do it"

If there mucking around in training I would expect a trainer to tell them to stop mucking around and leave if they dont wana be here, theyve come there for training and if they arent guna train theres no point coming.

Few day care centers will say to you, “look your kid is too bratty or loud. We don’t want your business.” If they did, they would lose credibility. Instead, they work things out with their staff. They have a system in place. The same should be true of your MA gym.

A day care center is where the parents come to you for the service of taking care of their kid for a length of time who is unable to be left alone for that length of time, It is a complete different business to a martial art school.

A martial art school: The kid/teenager has talked to his parents about learning self defence or whatever, they have then arranged to have lessons at your school, this is what the teen has said they are interested in doing, If they then arent showing any interest in the martial art anymore then there is no point being there.

daycare center= kid has no choice being there

martial art school= kid has chosen to come

quite a different customer base.

My advice: (coming from a late teen whos been doing martial arts for the past 7 years)

If the problem is so bad, get the parents in with the kid and sit down together and talk, ask the kid if he really wants to be training, if he does then ask him why he is wasting his time training then? and if hes really that keen on martial arts why isnt he showing and enthusiasm, if the kid says no he doesnt really want to learn any more then let the family know that you dont think the kid should have to feel pressured to come if he's not that interested, tell him to take some time off; and maybe in the future if hes interested again he can try again. but dont keep wasting



If you dont want the advice, dont take it.

Hope it helps.

[pstevens]

And there in lies the problem; your too busy protecting your "reputation".

Ofcourse… Anyone who says otherwise, isn’t a real school owner or has no business in the industry. Your reputation is your livelihood. It represents your investment, hard work and hours spent designing your curriculum. You should always protect this above and beyond anything else, otherwise you don’t value what you do.

The REASON you risk possible lawsuits and everything else that can go wrong with opening a gym is to succeed your business. As such, the life-blood of your school relies on its reputation teach successfully.

There’s no such thing as a school owner who puts his student’s needs above the reputation of the school. Students will come and go; but your school has to survive.

If the kid has no interest being there, theres no use him/her wasting their time and yours and their parents money, it benefits no one.

You arent a daycare, so why bother babysitting them.

THEY came to YOU for training; if they arent bothering with that training they dont need to be there. end of story.

Actually, the same principle applies as a daycare. When you opened your doors you volunteered to provide a service. For that you’re responsible to some degree. True, they came to you for training, but you had the opportunity to say “yes” or “no.” That you allowed them into your facility and let them sign up, makes you legally and socially responsible for them while in your care. In fact, depending on your enrollment system, you could be sued for simply throwing someone out without a legitimate reason, other than that you thought they were slacking off. You would need a clause in your agreement that defines “slacking” and that defines your ability to throw them out. In most cases, it doesn’t come to this; but I’m simply saying it’s a possibility I’ve heard about before.

Few day care centers will say to you, “look your kid is too bratty or loud. We don’t want your business.” If they did, they would lose credibility. Instead, they work things out with their staff. They have a system in place. The same should be true of your MA gym.

[eye l l sac]

let them know they only cheat themselves?

[jonbey]

Encouraging the students to focus by not talking is a good idea. People do like to talk (myself included, and I am almost 35...). Just concentrate on the ones that are putting the extra effort in.

[kazon33]

first of all I dont own the school so I cant just kick people out.

these kids come to class and imediately start talking to their friends about their days at school and general things that they are involved in. on top of that when I watch them doing the drills that I assign to them they are putting in only minimal effort while they talk to each other.

I managed the problem by enforcing my rule of no unecessary conversation durring class. when I did that most of the distruption was gone but some of them are still not putting forth the effort I would like.

[jonbey]

My question is, why are they there at all? Can you not talk to them about their motivations, desires? Are they there under duress? I admit I have only been in classes where everyone makes that daily decision to turn up to train.