Crossing Over: ERIC "BUTTERBEAN' ESCH

[SamuraiGuy]

I still see Nog being able to submit him everytime....

it took minowa (180 pound fighter) 4 and a half minutes to armbar Bean in the first round if I remember correctly...

took a 150 pound! Genki Sudo about a minute into the second round to submit Bean.

Now, I think sudo's accomplishment is even greater than minowa's, besides the weight difference, he went a whole round with him in a K-1 event before submitting him.

If a 150 pounder can last that long against Bean, I sure as hell think the heavyweights can, especially when someone has a chin like Nog.

[Uke]

I have no doubt that Nog would beat him, as Nog is among that 1%.

As I've stated, B-Bean needs work, but is as far ahead with striking as they are ahead with grappling.

[SamuraiGuy]

I have no doubt that Nog would beat him, as Nog is among that 1%.

As I've stated, B-Bean needs work, but is as far ahead with striking as they are ahead with grappling.

Thats true, but I'd still say there is a greater value in having great grappling and mediocre striking, over great striking and mediocre grappling.

Thats not to say I devalue striking, I actually think its more important to have better striking than grappling in MMA, even though I'm predominantly a grappler, I just dont see Bean being able to bridge that gap to where his grappling (this includes takedown defense) would be up to par.

The era of CroCop, Lidell, and to a lesser extent GSP is here. (GSP to a lesser extent because he could probably murder everyone but Penn and Hughes on the ground as well).

Grappling knowledge will make you good at MMA, grappling knowledge with good (good in a mma standard) striking will make you great at it. (Unless of course your one of those exceptions where your grappling is so good it gets the job done).

[Uke]

Thats true, but I'd still say there is a greater value in having great grappling and mediocre striking, over great striking and mediocre grappling.

I disagree.

I think greatness is greatness either way.

Nogueira and Fedor are both mediocre strikers but great grapplers and are successful.

Crocop and Wanderlei Silva are both mediocre grapplers but great strikers and successful.

There is no one way to be successful in the ring. The ones who master their forte and learn good defense against what they lack in are usually the most successful. But this applies only in the ring. But that's a different debate for a different forum.

[SamuraiGuy]

I wouldnt say Nogueira and Fedor are mediocre strikers in MMA anymore. Fedor did outstrike CroCop after all, now I realize he did this because CroCop had to be wary of the takedown, but Fedor isnt too shabby, he was smashing hunt on the feet in their latest fight.

And Nogueira has been boxing, boxing, boxing as of late. Lil Nog is likely going to represent Brazil in international amateur boxing, and some of that desire and gained skill has to rub off on big Nog.

Personally I just have noticed a trend of it being harder and harder for guys to finish on the ground, and the ones who are on the feet can end it, or at least score more points. Oh well.

[Uke]

I wouldnt say Nogueira and Fedor are mediocre strikers in MMA anymore. Fedor did outstrike CroCop after all, now I realize he did this because CroCop had to be wary of the takedown, but Fedor isnt too shabby, he was smashing hunt on the feet in their latest fight.

And Nogueira has been boxing, boxing, boxing as of late. Lil Nog is likely going to represent Brazil in international amateur boxing, and some of that desire and gained skill has to rub off on big Nog.

Personally I just have noticed a trend of it being harder and harder for guys to finish on the ground, and the ones who are on the feet can end it, or at least score more points. Oh well.

Fedor is a mediocre striker. He throws haymakers mostly. As I said previously, don't confuse punching power with boxing ability. Nogueira is a better boxer than Fedor. But they are still both mediocre.

What I've noticed is that Fedor can only afford to strike with the best strikers because they cover up because he comes forward with complete and utter aggression and a reckless abandon for safety when he strikes. He's an awesome offensive machine, even though a seasoned striker would knock him out if takedowns weren't a factor. But Fedor is a fearless MMA fighter. IMO, I think he might have trumped Wanderlei Silva and Quinton Jackson as the most fearless. That guy does not believe in letting fights go long.

I think the reason that Fedor is so successful is because he saves nothing for later. He goes out from the bell in full fight mode. He pulls no punches. He doesn't reserve any strength. He will slam or take you down in the first 30 seconds of the match.

I think that's another problem with MMA, SamuraiGuy. These guys aren't going all out from the onset. That isn't reality. And if they're training to hold back and pace themselves for the sake of entertainment, they shouldn't liken it to reality. A real fight, even between two unskilled guys, is abrupt and explosive. When you see two guys with their hands up circling each other, its mutual combat. No matter the outcome. All those "Kimbo" videos aren't what what street SD situations look like. That's a street boxing match, not a fight for survival.

I'd bet that Fedor would have a good chance against Kimbo even if grappling wasn't allowed. Not because Fedor is a great striker, but because Kimbo only throws hooks and Fedor has great forward aggression. No one except for the white MMA guy has brought the fight to Kimbo, and even then the MMA guy kicked and choked which was against the match's rules. Fedor could strike with him and do well because he's not afraid to get hit and trade.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Wanderlei isnt exactly a mediocre grappler considering that fact that he's been doing jiu jitsu and luta livre since childhood. But he is a striker at heart. His strategy is to stand up and strike even in the clinch.

[Uke]

Wanderlei isnt exactly a mediocre grappler considering that fact that he's been doing jiu jitsu and luta livre since childhood. But he is a striker at heart. His strategy is to stand up and strike even in the clinch.

Well he isn't elite. He's not at beginner level either. He has a solid base but you don't see him using many other skills but submission defense and getting up and out of the guard.

Chute Boxe originally started out as a muay thai school. The BJJ came later when the students wanted to compete in Vale Tudo.

I don't doubt that he's skilled in BJJ but so is Vitor Belfort, but you don't hear anyone calling him better than mediocre in BJJ.

[SamuraiGuy]

Fedor is a mediocre striker. He throws haymakers mostly. As I said previously, don't confuse punching power with boxing ability. Nogueira is a better boxer than Fedor. But they are still both mediocre.

What I've noticed is that Fedor can only afford to strike with the best strikers because they cover up because he comes forward with complete and utter aggression and a reckless abandon for safety when he strikes. He's an awesome offensive machine, even though a seasoned striker would knock him out if takedowns weren't a factor. But Fedor is a fearless MMA fighter. IMO, I think he might have trumped Wanderlei Silva and Quinton Jackson as the most fearless. That guy does not believe in letting fights go long.

I think the reason that Fedor is so successful is because he saves nothing for later. He goes out from the bell in full fight mode. He pulls no punches. He doesn't reserve any strength. He will slam or take you down in the first 30 seconds of the match.

I think that's another problem with MMA, SamuraiGuy. These guys aren't going all out from the onset. That isn't reality. And if they're training to hold back and pace themselves for the sake of entertainment, they shouldn't liken it to reality. A real fight, even between two unskilled guys, is abrupt and explosive. When you see two guys with their hands up circling each other, its mutual combat. No matter the outcome. All those "Kimbo" videos aren't what what street SD situations look like. That's a street boxing match, not a fight for survival.

I'd bet that Fedor would have a good chance against Kimbo even if grappling wasn't allowed. Not because Fedor is a great striker, but because Kimbo only throws hooks and Fedor has great forward aggression. No one except for the white MMA guy has brought the fight to Kimbo, and even then the MMA guy kicked and choked which was against the match's rules. Fedor could strike with him and do well because he's not afraid to get hit and trade.

Your preaching to the choir here, we're both saying some of the same things, and what you say about street stuff, I already know. I do MMA because its fun for me, I've gone through more pain there than I probably ever will from any streetfight I get into, I enjoy it, thats why I do, same reason I box as part of MMA etc....

I'm more of the in between on the whole spectrum of the MMA/Street line that has been drawn on this forum. I realize that each has their place, and I feel they do compliment each other (just like playing a sport like Rugby compliments your fighting ability, conditioning, getting hit, toughness, etc... might not be direct but it sure as hell helps).

I did RBSD before I went to the MMA and BJJ school I'm currently at, I went to MMA/BJJ because I was more interested in it, personal choice, I'm really not worried about getting beat up, attacked, etc... (Although have carried up to three knives while out before) and I do MMA because I like it more. Just the way I'm not gonna slag someone for doing Tai Chi in the park, or kicking boards in TKD, if thats what they want to do I have no problem with it, as long as there not delusional about what they are doing. And I'm not.

I dont know if you've read any of my posts on Kimbo, but I've always maintained he wins because he moves forward and throws punches. The other guys are usually defeated before the fight happens, and dont just fucking throw hands, they throw out slaps and shit, BACK UP, etc... If you watch the one where the guy walks in through the fence and takes his shirt off (white guy), he doesnt throw one solid punch the whole fight, not even a haymaker or anything like that, and he gets fucking owned. Or the afro guy, just slaps at him till he gets dropped. I've always stated agression will win most of the "street fights" that you see. I put street fights in quotes because by that I mean, the school yard fight, the set up fights where guys are filming etc... where you know theres gonna be a confrontation, they circle etc.... I watched 100's of those fights and found 95% of the time, the person who goes forward and starts throwing, is the one who wins. The other person covers, eventually gets hit in the face, and keeps getting hit, and they've lost. This is all Kimbo does IMO.

Another thing is, if you want to hear why I think Ground Grappling is the best thing you can learn for self defense, PM me. I wont go into it here because I dont want other people commenting on it to tell you the truth. I'll tell you why I think that though, and its not the usual bullshit you here, although I think I've brought it up before..

Anyway this post is long enough.

[Uke]

SamuraiGuy if you like MMA, do it! I have never told anyone to stop doing MMA, BJJ, boxing or wrestling. I've never even implied that anyone should discontinue their own training.

Since coming here, the only thing that I've ever even discussed examining is the fact that BJJ isn't the art of choice for street violence. Too many variables. The debate has since turned to MMA, but the debate remains the same. Sports are sports for a reason. And at no point in time was newaza ever a battlefield art. My argument was for those who wished to deceive those who didn't know any better by stating that BJJ, MMA, boxing, wrestling or muay thai will prepare them for the violence that comes with urban warfare.

My take on BJJ?

The reason that newaza ever became popular was due to the Fusen Ryu school of jujitsu defeating Kano and his entire school. And that system only developed after weapons were banned from Japan. The timing is no coincidence. Even Kano discarded much of the newaza in later years because he felt that too many students were focusing on instantly going to the ground and in his opinion that wasn't practical. So he switched the focus back to achieving the throw and/or takedown.

If the man who brought fusen ryu newaza to the rest of the world practiced it, weighed it and deemed it impractical as it moved away from combat and towards sport, then I'm going to take his word for it.

Listen SamuraiGuy, if you want to send your ideas about BJJ to me in a pm, that's fine. We can discuss it like gentlemen. But I'm not going to pm you to request them.

Let's move away from this discussion. Its disrespectful to the boxing forum. Boxers and boxing fans seldom talk about boxing as combatives, so there's no reason to debate this here.

PM me if you like.