Peter Manfredo Jnr vs Joe Calzaghe

[Troll Virus]

Incidentally, TV, I went back and read the very first post in the thread here and YOU started it by saying "US vs UK."

Replying to Mike in reverse order.
Aha.
Glad you caught that.
Yes, over here, on Monday (tonight in fact) we have just that.
'The Contender', billed as US vs UK kicks off at 9pm.
When I posted this thread, that's what was flashing up on the adverts.
I also knew this thread would take this direction, based on observation of member issues here.

How the hell are you going to call me a racist for making an issue out of where people come from when your whole damned thread started with the very same thing? Hmmmmm???

I'm not calling you a racist.

[Troll Virus]

I wanted to post this separately because most of the reply you posted was completely off topic.

If you bring in off topic comments yourself, do you not want a reply>

As to the racism issue, when one talks about which country something is "bigger" in, it's impossible not to talk about nationality. That's not racism, but streamlined communication. Don't try to make a political smear out of it.

It's not a smear at all.

If you want to talk about war debt and who's done what for whom, I would suggest another thread in another area of the forum. This is about boxing, not world affairs.

Interesting.
So you support the idea that specific areas of the forum should be for discussing specific things in focussed/specific discussion?
How about CMA being allowed same?

However, in considering America ruining the British economy, may I suggest you rewind your BBC History of the World special to around 1607:

I'm not living in 1607.
I'm affected by the issues mentioned right now!

the founding of Jamestown. Watch the portion between 1607 and oh, say, 1776. Britain took its share and more from the US during that century and a half.

OK, I know you're not saying it was OK to rip off the UK, because the UK ripped off the US first.

Compared with the whole "keeping Britain from falling to the Nazis" issue, I'll be happy to compare and contrast the give and take between both nations. But let's do it in the proper venue.

Bingo! Or should I say Jingo?
There you go right there!
"keeping Britain from falling to the Nazis"

Now, let's talk about that law of averages you're trying to use to make it seem like my argument holds no water.

Wasn't what was doing at all.

Please expound for a moment on how "more people" has ever equalled "better people."

Sure.
Cachement area, as in a great number of people, plus opportunity, as in training environment equals likelihood of success.
Taking China or India for example.
They have huge populations, but not a great deal of opportunity in terms of Boxing or anything else for that matter.

I should also point out that among the great champs in the UK like Lennox Lewis, most of them at some point in their career decided to make a shift and come to America to get the elite level training they couldn't find at home.

Think he's Canadian anyway.

I would submit to you that it is the level of training, the level of competition, the level of paydays, and the extraordinary venues here that has helped the US to develop so many great champions - not the popultion.

Couldn't be done without the population.

If population is really the only factor,

Never said it was.

then the burden is to you to explain how it is that the US has not produced more cricket stars, polo stars, or soccer stars than the UK.

My word.....
....Twas only last week somebody on here told me nobody should be asked to prove a negative.
Well, there's some would argue that Baseball is Cricket with extra bells on.
Over here, it's been called "rounders" for centuries.
American Football has the same relationship with Rugby.

If population is the factor that swings the law of averages in my favor, then you've got one heck of a paradox on your hands with those other sports, don't you?

Hope my explanation satisfies.

[Piston]

Calzahge was wailing on Manfredo. He was outclassed and I think Manfredo knew it. If he wasn't going to fight back, why not stop the fight? This was a publicity fight and nothing more, I think we'll see Calzaghe go on to bigger and better things.

[Troll Virus]

Troll Virus,
As I've said time and again, I don't patrol the CMA forums, and as far as I know, Excessive Force has repeatedly sent that very message. Are you honestly suggesting that I should not enforce decorum in the areas I do frequent, just because some people are not listening to Excessive in others?

No.

As for your population argument, again, please answer the question as to why the US with all our opportunity and population has not produced more more soccer champs than the UK?

I did.
You don't have the opportunity though.
Why?
Well because Soccer is not really a mainstream sport in the US.
Why do you think it isn't?
Is the oxygen in the US somehow not conducive to Soccer?
Of course not.

The argument is flat, TV, and it doesn't hold up.

Hold your horse there Tonto.

Cuba and the Dominican Republic have produced a disproportionately high number of baseball stars despite NO opportunity and small populations. Puerto Rico has been the starting place for many of boxing's greatest champs, and it's a tiny country.

Lets take a far clearer example.
Take Thailand.
You know there're barefoot kids in little villages over there right?
If one shows talent, the family can take a gamble and send them to a training camp, in the vain hope that they will be eventually re-payed.
Meanwhile, the fights are different, because it's not a new house or yacht you're fighting for, it's bread on the table for your family.

You're making excuses and using empty arguments to support non-existant points.

Nope.

Give us something to work with besides, "You guys are bigger!"

One thing I'll correct from earlier was the population of New York, which is 18-19 million and not the 80 million I posted.
I was on the phone to a friend recently moved to NY and mistook his 18 million for 80 million....but hell yeah....what's the total population of America, and are there not 'states' with populations greater than the UK?

And if you're not affected by past history, why bring up debt from World War II?

I'm not affected directly by the events of 1607 you posted, but I have been waiting for six months to see a specialist on the wonderful free (ha ha) National Health Service, which is directly a result of the huge favour America did for the UK.

You wanted this conversation elsewhere, so please use the 'Jingo' thread on Open Access.

[Piston]

Mike is correct here, Calzaghe will have to go outside of the UK to get the recognition he deserves. In principle he shouldn't have to, however the proffesional boxing world is and for the forseeable future will be dominated by a US-centric ideal. In principle the multi-billion (perhaps trillion?) dollar companies that fuel boxing *should* come to the talent, but most large companies will throw principle out of the window if it gets in the way of profit (read: democracy).

Lets face it, how the hell would you market Calzaghe an American audience? Now I'm trying not to be too anti-american here but your average American punter has the attention span of a gnat when it comes to the media. So, a foreigner, from a tiny little country that most Americans will never hear about in their lives, wants to take on the world of boxing? Not profitable.

Now we can compare him to an English export, Beckham. The Beckham brand is HUGE. North America may not know it yet but Beckham is massive in most of Europe, South America and especially in Japan. He has an American market in the hispanic community, the guys who actually play football in America (no I'm not calling it soccer), and other minority groups. If he enters into the psyche of average Joe America, even better for Beckham. This simply won't happen for Calzaghe because he has no American marketability and will therefore never be considered a 'great', despite his talent.

[Piston]

When I say "North America may not know it yet", I mean to say he does not have the same status, as in the other places listed. Poorly phrased, my bad .

Edit: So much of British premiership football is being bought up by ludicrously rich Americans and other equally well financed foreigners, geography means very little in terms of where he gets his money. The amount top premiership footballers get payed is insane condsidering what they do. But thats another kettle of fish entirely.

[Thai Bri]

Another thread ruined by TV and his stupid ego.

[Uke]

Another thread ruined by TV and his stupid ego.

Absolutely true, Thai Bri.

[Troll Virus]

I think the simple fact that you're gallantly trying to confuse in all this is that despite his considerable talent and ability, Calzaghe will never be taken as seriously as many think he should be until he leaves his own backyard and fights the top guys elsewhere...including but not limited to America. You don't have to like that fact, but it's still a fact.

I'm completely ambivalent to the location of Calzaghe's next match.
It seems to be an issue for others however.

[Uke]

I think everyone including myself has cut right to the heart of this debate:

Joe Calzaghe is a very good boxer, and most acknowledge that. However, before he's recognized as great, he has to beat other perceived great fighters. He has to do great things. He has to conquer, not merely dispatch mediocre competition. Also, he has to come to where the greatest boxers in the world come to validate their worth: The USA. Any other arguments besides that were meant to go off into other tangents so not to focus on what's obvious.

Calzaghe knows this. Some of us here know it. And I'm pretty sure some other's who won't admit it know it, especially after the fact that the following has come to light:

"On 27 November 2006 it was announced that Calzaghe had signed a contract to defend his WBO Super Middleweight title against former star of Contender Peter Manfredo Jr. on 7 April 2007 at Millennium Stadium in Cardiff, Wales on HBO. Because HBO didn't want to cover any fight with mandatory IBF challenger Robert Stieglitz, and with the opportunity if he won against Manfredo to fight Taylor in the summer, Calzaghe chose to fight Manfredo and resultantly had to relinquish the IBF super middleweight championship. Both Calzaghe and Warren claimed that "Stieglitz doesn't mean anything outside of Germany."

Calzaghe has applied this same logic to his repeated moves not to fight WBA/WBC champion Mikkel Kessler, refusing to meet "The Viking Warrior" until his own recognition in the United States is more pronounced."

After this was brought to attention, this topic has gone on to US/UK history and relations, to population and how it relates to sport popularity. Everything except for what was pertinent. The passage above not only shows that my thinking was correct, but that the idea that Calzaghe doesn't think in terms of popularity(which translates to dollars) in the US is incorrect.

The above passage not only shows the possibility of Calzaghe ducking Kessler, but reinforces the fact that I had been stating all along: Recognition in the USA clearly means a lot more to boxers than Troll Virus and Wado_kai have any knowledge about.

[Troll Virus]

Let me make my position clear, ignoring the personal slights implied.
I don't care where or who Calzaghe fights, only that he does.
I've been following his career for about ten years, watched him struggle his way up the ranks, plagued by injury/recovery, injury/recovery.
The guy has the guts to go all the way.
That's one Euro boxer on his way to mecca.

btw. Calzaghe suffered a schaffoid fracture in that fight, but is optimistic about a four week recovery time.

[Thai Bri]

I'm completely ambivalent to the location of Calzaghe's next match.
It seems to be an issue for others however.

Ys, like anyone who wants to see him challenge himself the way others do.

It is so easy to be a big fish in a little pond.