Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[chris davis 200]

Yeh i agree

The ironic thing is that most mcdojo's are modern systems and not TMA's!

[Tom Yum]

It depends how you learn a traditional martial art and apply it.

Getting into a static horse stance for practicing hand strikes is not going to do well against a moving target. Sadly this is how some styles practice 100% of their hand techniques.

If you're going to throw traditional hand strikes, you'd better throw them from a fighting stance that allows you to move quickly - I don't know much about Chinese systems but from what I observe there is movement often in the form of simple linear motion (like western boxing) and by changing from stance to stance. I've heard that Choy Lay Fut uses alot of slipping and bob/weave movement - that impresses me as effective.

If your legs are crossed (as is the case in some stances) your lower body is succeptible to thai style leg kicks or takedowns.

Also drills that take so long as to cause students to lock out their arms so that their partner can go through an entire self defense sequence are useless. A defense against one punch against a skilled fighter will not lend you the time to throw more than 1-3 strikes back without the attacker moving back or sideways or disengaging for another attack. When boxers learn defense drills, the punches are thrown at 60-70% speed so you learn to be simple and quick in your response.

Boxers/kickboxers stick and move, as you know they explode punches and retract lightly and quickly without 'jerking' as some TMAs are accustomed to.

If TMAs are to be effective, they should be practiced effectively.

[chris davis 200]

Getting into a static horse stance for practicing hand strikes is not going to do well against a moving target.

A training method - nothing more - not real combat - not combat training - its like lifting weights - does that help a boxer yes - is it applicable in combat no.

This sort of practice is to produce strong legs and body. Get into a deep horse stance and train like that for 30 mins - your legs will be worked out.

If you're going to throw traditional hand strikes, you'd better throw them from a fighting stance that allows you to move quickly

When you see the deep heavily weighted stances in TMA (although this is a hugely broad subject) they are nearly always for training - some are applied in combat but only in certain situations - the principle of this type of training is that - when training you go deep - deep stances etc - this will make you comfortable in all ranges of stance above that. When actually fighting you will be in a much higher stance similar to a boxers - but with a better ability to root yourself and resist thowing .

I've heard that Choy Lay Fut uses alot of slipping and bob/weave movement - that impresses me as effective.

I think you will find that most TMA's do.

Look here at some of the training videos.

Although you may not think this is TMA's it is.

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/index.htm

There are videos so you can see some of the applications in action!

click on these to see some of the application videos.

You will notice his stances when he effects his counters - they are high - this is reality not the deep stances you see.

If your legs are crossed (as is the case in some stances) your lower body is succeptible to thai style leg kicks or takedowns.

Stances are fluid thing that you move from and into - they are not 'stand in one stance, move, stand in another' they are moving, moving, moving.

Also drills that take so long as to cause students to lock out their arms so that their partner can go through an entire self defense sequence are useless.

Agreed - this is a trait of modern Kempo and Modern JJ - wou will rairly find it in traditional schools.

A defense against one punch against a skilled fighter will not lend you the time to throw more than 1-3 strikes back without the attacker moving back or sideways or disengaging for another attack.

again agreed - and i have never seen this in TMA's.

When boxers learn defense drills, the punches are thrown at 60-70% speed so you learn to be simple and quick in your response.

Yes -as do TMA's

I think that the majority of people here are not actually talking about TMA's but they are talking about modern interpretations and Mc dojo's. Traditional in terms of Japanese arts, means IMO arts developed before the Meiji resteration, 1880's. On a chinese side of things IMO over 100 years of lineage.

This is what TMA's are to me.

Aikido, judo, many forms of Karate etc do not fall into this catergory and are classed (to me and many others) as modern arts.

If TMAs are to be effective, they should be practiced effectively.

they are - please seek out a TMA's hsing i school or something to see if it is realistic. I think that this would be the most applicable demonstration of TMA's to a boxer.

cheers
Chris

[Tom Yum]

So when you refer to classical systems, are you referring mostly to Chinese based arts?

[chris davis 200]

No not at all, as i said

- japanese Koryu are what i consider TMA's, arts such as aikido are modern interpretations of koryu arts.

I think that the majority of people here are not actually talking about TMA's but they are talking about modern interpretations and Mc dojo's. Traditional in terms of Japanese arts, means IMO arts developed before the Meiji resteration, 1880's. On a chinese side of things IMO over 100 years of lineage.

Arts such as aikido are fairly new. Developed and named pre 1950, Judo is also a new system based on old Japanese Koryu.

Now these systems were not developed because the old forms were not effective - but because there was a need ....

In judo - for the arts to be continued after the samurai age and as a physical excersise for children in schools, therefor Jigaro Kano took out many of the dangerous techniques in favour of saftey for participants.

In the case of Aikido - Ueshiba origionally taught the koryu art of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, he thn had an 'enlightnment' experience and adapted many of the techniques of this more brutel art to be more about controlling without injury, this was to fit his very very religious beliefs.

Adaption does happen to TMA's but the only time it works is when the person adapting is a Master of the TMA. He then has the knowledge necesary to adapt - often it is not a case that there was something wrong origionally but that the master has personal beliefs that he wants to express through his skill.
Hence the many forms of aikido.

cheers
chris

[madmax420]

i train in both muay thai and western boxing

a thai boxer should be able to kick a boxers ass in fight because he has so many more weapons to chose from. boxers are only taught to defend themselves from the waist up and only punch. the best thing is to train in both- use the thai stance when u want to kick and a boxing stance when u want to box. its hard to throw an effective punch with a good amount of power from a thai stance.

boxers have far better punching skills than any other martial arts though and can still beat the hell out of the majority of karate and tkd guys

[Thadiius]

I don't think styles win fights...it's the fighter. I've seen people that know martial arts beaten by people that didn't have any knowledge of a discipline. How good is a leg kick if you get hit first and get ko'd? Or if you get kicked upside the head trying to throw a straight right at someone and ko'd? One blow can change any fight. Assuming that a certain style gurantees a victory is not only naive, but it's dangerous! I do think cross training is a great idea, three weeks ago i broke my hand training, theres no way i could have hit anything after that...that wouldn't be very good if i was in a fight, learning to use my legs would definetly come in handy.

[madmax420]

if your a decent muay thai fighter u should be able to kick someone's ass who doesnt know any martial arts. assuming he's around your same size. thats not naive muay thai isnt karate or tkd its moves are very effective and useful. people with so called "martial arts" knowledge and got their ass kicked by someone who didnt know any martial arts probably were karate or tkd guys taking classed at some mcdojo with 13 year old kids. its also true that anyone can get sucker punched when they're not expecting it and get ko'd no matter how good a fighter u are

[SOUTHPAW]

Hi All;
I am coming into this thread late in the game, but I find the opinions and comments very interesting. I was (years ago) a good amateur boxer (47/6/0) and never trained in any "traditional martial arts". After getting back into the sport I discovered Muay Thai and decided to follow that road. I fight at 178 pounds (light heavyweight for all you non-believers) I can say without a doubt that MT is bad ass! I can also say that a solid backround in boxing is almost essential. Having said that, the most important thing a young fighter can do is EVOLVE!! Don't be dogmatic, and don't think that you can't learn something from a different style of the same sport (different trainers, gyms etc.) I would still get into the ring with a comparable fighter from either sport, just to stay sharp and learn and be competetive. I am pretty much over the hill (although guys like George Foreman and Holyfield give me some hope!!) but most of you guys are young and up and coming. Train hard and be open-minded, you might find yourself in a position to win a title one day...in either sport. Peace.

[grubbogoppoly]

All I have to say. .You should never fight your opponents fight. Boxers of all people should know this. So essentially what I am saying is a boxer won't beat a Martial artist and a martial artist won't beat a boxer. It is whoever has a better plan and executes it smoothly. These conversations are basically worthless in my opinion. It is all a bunch of macho S*it to reaffirm to yourself that your art is "the best".

[grubbogoppoly]

Just thought of something else. How many boxers do you hear that train elite forces. I personally train in hwa rang do. My instructor in sacramento trained navy seals. The instructors here train police forces. If it is applied in the greatest combat of all then how can it not be effective??

[ryanhall]

grubbogoppoly,
The fact that someone has trained special forces or police officers doesn't really say anything in particular about them or what they teach. Plenty of crap instructors have 'trained navy SEALs' because the military is always looking for something new. As a result, they try out many instructors and styles, if only for a short period of time.

No military power teaches any martial art exclusively, as martial arts invariably contain a lot of unnecessary nonsense. I am not commenting on your art or your instructor, just your comment regarding training special forces and the fact that someone has really means nothing in particular.

[grubbogoppoly]

They have been doing this since the 70's though. Very specifically michael echanis(died in combat),however I do get what you mean. .

[grubbogoppoly]

Just curious I noticed all the different types of MA that you have taken. .If there is so much "useless stuff"then why did you take so many different forms?

[ryanhall]

Just curious I noticed all the different types of MA that you have taken. .If there is so much "useless stuff"then why did you take so many different forms?

I took Judo (my first martial art) for about two and a half years during high school, and I feel that it gave me a good introduction into what hard contact training should be like. I took Hapkido for about four months before deciding to can it and pay off the worthless instructor for the rest of the yearlong contract that I signed. I quit because the material was nonsense, and we were learning all of that 'useless stuff.' In addition, the instructor was a poor example of a human being, and a worse one of a martial artist (couldn't fight, didn't teach classes, was full of himself, and made poor attempts to hurt students).

I've boxed for about a year and a half, and I enjoy it. I take it for what it is in terms of actual combat, but it does nothing but enhance the combatives and RBSD stuff that I do. I continue to box to this day (though I'm currently searching for a good gym after moving recently), and I'm going to be working out with some Vale Tudo/Thai fighters in the near future.

I wrestled for a year in high school. Having Judo experience was a big bonus. Wrestling helped me a lot with simple takedowns (couldn't get over the habit of slapping on a rear naked choke every time somebody flipped to their stomach though) and added to my ability to stay on my feet against a grappler.

Contemporary Fighting Arts, Senshido, and WWII Combatives are all solely self-defense oriented. No forms, no air punching, no 'art' whatsoever. I feel that they contain literally none of the 'useless stuff,' and actual experience has proven this (for me and many, many others who know a lot more than I).

Why have I dabbled in this and that? Because you start out knowing next to nothing, and you have to learn somewhere. I've found what I like, and I've seen things I don't. I now practice a very limited number of things, and very few of them are martial art oriented.

Thank you for your question. Why do you feel that Hwarangdo is a real world applicable self-defense method?