Conditioning the Hands Part I (Introduction)

[47MartialMan]

1.) There are many people in this world that are mislead by improper teachings. I had known several people who practicted the style of Iron palm that I took up. All of them had practiced for years and years , they had no problems.

2.) I am sorry that the teacher you had may have "thought" what he wa teaching was porper. Obviously from your results it was not. I would have to say that if my teacher told me
"Rub this on your hands everyday"
And the stuff made them raw and peeling I'd have to discontinue that.
Call me a rebel.

3.) At now time does any Iron palm practice I ever heard of supposed to cause "severe" damage to your hands. It is expressly described in many manuals books and even more recently in videos that if your hands are raw or bleeding you ar doing something wrong.
Since I have been practicing iron palm all "my" hand problems have dissapated.
I have broken my hand several times in fights and my right hand was a serious problem for me. In the past 5 years I have had only minimal problems with it. it no longer swells and stiffens in the winter time to a useless point.

4.) Once again there are many arts out there and many people. Some people don't react well to certain herbs in linaments and some people teach what they think is real and best.

5.) I mean take for example all the people who belive the ground is for a street fight and those that don't, who argue on this forum all the time.

6.) I think maybe we are all so busy on here trying to tell everyone else that "our" opinion our thoughts are the only right one's and not enough time seeing what everyone else things from a more analytical view.

1.) True, same goes for this type of conditioning. Are we talking 30, 40, 50 years? My instructor HAS problems from it. I have seen others "up in age" having problems. Age "catches" up.

2.) But, as you get older, you should get wiser. There are hardly 50-year old "rebels". And fighting becomes obsolete. So all of this "hard work", per conditioning is useless. Not to mention if you live in a society of firearms.

3.) For now they may not be there-I am speakinf of long-term.

4.) Same goes for any type of treatment. Why risk it of being one of those.

5.) Please Explain

6.) How true. But my opinions are based from 35+ years experience, though I lived on this earth 15 years passed that.

You may be missing the point-I am speaking long-term and what society dictates as normal living.

Not too many people can train this way. Nor should they unless they are in a weaponless, warring, renegade society.

[47MartialMan]

1.) Personally I have spoken with many Dr. of Traditional Chinese medicine or TCM and they have all agreed that Jow of any kind should not be painful to use and if rash or extreme reddness occurs stop using it and see a Dr.

2.) As for yielding to modern medicine I'll steer clear of that because I have never ever heard a Dr. of TCM say anything remotley close to this.

3.) TCM's are about preventing aliment before it happens. Not treating it with a pill some Dr. gets kickbacks for prescribing.

4.) I don't think monks were punching barn doors or car doors when they trained sorry dude that just silly. How many peopl do you see on the street made out of flat boards or sheet metal. The diffrent bags and the mediums you use in iron palm simulate diffrent "Human" body structures.

1.) Agreed. But they cannot deny there will be future ailments and complications. TCM and traditional have a biased attitude and some are in egotistical denial.

2.) There is the problem-DR of TCM, per my above. Some folk medicine is not true same goes for modern. But neither should be "completely discarded".

3.) Hmmmn. I wasn't speaking of a pill, but modern ointments. Have you not used any modern doctors, medicines, or even conveniences?

4.) That monk thing is over-rated and misleading.

[kingoftheforest]

1.) Agreed. But they cannot deny there will be future ailments and complications. TCM and traditional have a biased attitude and some are in egotistical denial.

2.) There is the problem-DR of TCM, per my above. Some folk medicine is not true same goes for modern. But neither should be "completely discarded".

3.) Hmmmn. I wasn't speaking of a pill, but modern ointments. Have you not used any modern doctors, medicines, or even conveniences?

4.) That monk thing is over-rated and misleading.

I can see we are two people with differing opinions on the same topic.

While it is clear that you have physical evidence to support your opinion I as well can back mine up. I have enjoyed our conversation in this thread but I feel since we seem to have come to an impasse that niether myself or you may glean any further useful information from continuing to argue.

Thank you for your time and knowledge.

[47MartialMan]

I can see we are two people with differing opinions on the same topic.

While it is clear that you have physical evidence to support your opinion I as well can back mine up. I have enjoyed our conversation in this thread but I feel since we seem to have come to an impasse that niether myself or you may glean any further useful information from continuing to argue.

Thank you for your time and knowledge.

Yes, it is easy to post opinions on sites such as this.

It is clear that there are people who actually believe that hard training, per conditioning, is actually going to help them when they reach 40's-50's. I am not in a impase with you, I am "passed" you in many years of experience and age to say that I dont see the point of it.

Note- this expereince is not to state that I am a better person than you, just that with age comes many things learned and realized. When you reach this age, you may realize it also.

You, as well as anyone else, have the freedom to post. I enjoyed reading your posts on this matter for it solidified my opinions and beliefs moreso.

[BoarSpear]

Yes, it is easy to post opinions on sites such as this.



You, as well as anyone else, have the freedom to post. I enjoyed reading your posts on this matter for it solidified my opinions and beliefs moreso.

Yep posting opinions IS easy. YOU said you started at 15, thats 6 years before you should. Dont blame the system, YOU and your parents and your teacher are to blame. You didnt do proper traditional training. It doesnt start until 21, Jow doesn't eat your hands. You simply beat your hands into the things with an improper jow formula...Thats not the arts fault, its yours, you of course find it easier to blame the art...however as you admitted you didnt follow the BASIC rules so you proved our point, thanks for posting though...

PS. i am also a gray haired old dude with decades of iron palm training my teacher is 70, he aint got hand problems either I still train iron palm daily....

[Uke]

BoarSpear

I am curious, what are the benefits of iron palm training? I known the promises, but have you personally found beneficial about it?

[BoarSpear]

I am curious, what are the benefits of iron palm training? I known the promises, but have you personally found beneficial about it?

Hehehehe well lets see, the three most common things people with decades in the arts say when we meet are, 1) DAMN!! you've got the fastest hands i've EVER seen 2) whoa....DUDE your hands are HEAVY!!......3) DUDE!! your hands look normal? why aint they all destroyed and stuff?

That answer your question? Can you HEAR a punch when you throw it? People ALWAYS comment on the sound my hands make in the air...no gi...just a t shirt....there is serious power and speed in my hands...

now imagine a guy who has been practicing judo and jujutsu for 30 years with 25 years of ironpalm catching you in a groundfight....i love to "play the drums" on their head(s) when we go to ground...i avoid the vitals and just have fun with 'em....LOL

The look on people face when we do knife drills is usually priceless, when an ironpalm guy pak sau (slap blocks) your arm, you know it...trainers often go flying....punches dont come back after one good palm strike to the arm for instance.....a student caught me with a palm a couple weeks ago, i had numbness in both arms for a week....we were training at about 5 percent total body strength at the time...imagine a full power strike with intent..

[Sagacious Lu]

Hehehehe well lets see, the three most common things people with decades in the arts say when we meet are, 1) DAMN!! you've got the fastest hands i've EVER seen 2) whoa....DUDE your hands are HEAVY!!......3) DUDE!! your hands look normal? why aint they all destroyed and stuff?

That answer your question? Can you HEAR a punch when you throw it? People ALWAYS comment on the sound my hands make in the air...no gi...just a t shirt....there is serious power and speed in my hands...

now imagine a guy who has been practicing judo and jujutsu for 30 years with 25 years of ironpalm catching you in a groundfight....i love to "play the drums" on their head(s) when we go to ground...i avoid the vitals and just have fun with 'em....LOL

The look on people face when we do knife drills is usually priceless, when an ironpalm guy pak sau (slap blocks) your arm, you know it...trainers often go flying....punches dont come back after one good palm strike to the arm for instance.....a student caught me with a palm a couple weeks ago, i had numbness in both arms for a week....we were training at about 5 percent total body strength at the time...imagine a full power strike with intent..

You've frequently mentioned fajin strikes in combination with iron palm trainging, to what degree do you need to practice fajin punching to take adavantage of iron palm conditioning?

[BoarSpear]

You've frequently mentioned fajin strikes in combination with iron palm trainging, to what degree do you need to practice fajin punching to take adavantage of iron palm conditioning?

constantly!!! we play fairly rough at times in class, but the rule is NO FAJIN with a resisting opponent since the strikes just landing without fajin stagger people fairly regularly

all our training and forms incorporate fajin strikes, putting out candles is also great for learning to focus fajin strikes.

the iron palm is just the icing on the cake, we study vital points and train to hit them on resisting opponents without fajin (lightly) the fajin we save for actual fights then you just release it with no regard for the other guys welfare.

[Uke]

constantly!!! we play fairly rough at times in class, but the rule is NO FAJIN with a resisting opponent since the strikes just landing without fajin stagger people fairly regularly

all our training and forms incorporate fajin strikes, putting out candles is also great for learning to focus fajin strikes.

the iron palm is just the icing on the cake, we study vital points and train to hit them on resisting opponents without fajin (lightly) the fajin we save for actual fights then you just release it with no regard for the other guys welfare.

Sounds great. Maybe one day I'll get a chance to come down and see for myself. There have been so many people claiming to know secret moves and techniques all over. I've seen many amazing things that have little to do with fighting. So I have to say that I'd love to know more about this. Brian Gray has mystical stories about monks flying around in the air and such, so I didn't much pay attention to him.

[jubaji]

Hehehehe well lets see, the three most common things people with decades in the arts say when we meet are, 1) DAMN!! you've got the fastest hands i've EVER seen 2) whoa....DUDE your hands are HEAVY!!......3) DUDE!! your hands look normal? why aint they all destroyed and stuff?

That answer your question? Can you HEAR a punch when you throw it? People ALWAYS comment on the sound my hands make in the air...no gi...just a t shirt....there is serious power and speed in my hands...

now imagine a guy who has been practicing judo and jujutsu for 30 years with 25 years of ironpalm catching you in a groundfight....i love to "play the drums" on their head(s) when we go to ground...i avoid the vitals and just have fun with 'em....LOL

The look on people face when we do knife drills is usually priceless,..

Oooh, careful there champ. You could break your arm patting yourself on the back like that.

[BoarSpear]

Sounds great. Maybe one day I'll get a chance to come down and see for myself. There have been so many people claiming to know secret moves and techniques all over. I've seen many amazing things that have little to do with fighting. So I have to say that I'd love to know more about this. Brian Gray has mystical stories about monks flying around in the air and such, so I didn't much pay attention to him.

Heheheheh Brian nothing secret and nothing mystical....you dont explain the iron palm procedures because without herbs and supervision its way more harmful than helpful.

vital points arent secret either, the location isnt a secret, the thing is it takes a lot of work to be able to hit those points in a real fight, second it takes even more work to learn to move in such a way as to generate the proper type of strike to actually get the stun or ko. third i believe you have to do the conditioning in order to understand the the technique of delivering the strike at the angle you need it. Actually hitting the different substances requires a different type of power for each one (sand, cotton, rice, wood chips, river rocks, bbs, water) those types of strikes teach you to control your power to an amazing degree. It is simply what the generic name for wushu is...."time and skill" thing is most people dont do the WORK required to take a TMA fom a hobby to a weapon. Yet the systems get blamed, it isnt the system that sucks, its the motivation and time investment of the student....everyone wants to be the next bruce lee, but no one wants to do the work that takes.

The Taiji forms taught the angle, direction of strike and type of power as well as the location of the target on the opponents body in a fight, this was taught through two man sets that contained these strikes. The attacker wore extra padding and you to hit these points as he attacked you. Most of that isnt usually taught anymore....people do shortened and competition taiji forms, not real Taiji which contained the 3 levels. Self healing, Self defense and medical healing (working on others, TCM) most only do the slow supposed health taiji it doesnt even work right without the shakes of taiji which are the energy transfer system....that shake is mastered through hit training (iron palm) and form work and sparring then once you can teach and control the whips and shakes that transfer the energy you can use it to put your energy into another persons body to break up blockages...accu-PRESSURE...if that failed then accu-puncture and diet along with chi gungs were used to treat the illness. Much like the fighting ability the healing isnt as useful without the energy transfer system taiji taught. Anyone acting like its secret or mystical is selling bullshit, its just RARE that doesnt make it mystical

and hell yeah UKE you sound like training with you would be fun, you're welcome to drop in anytime.

[BoarSpear]

Oooh, careful there champ. You could break your arm patting yourself on the back like that.

Yeah Yeah

i get a little errrr excited talking about my art you should see me get wound up teaching

[jubaji]

you should see me get wound up teaching

how many restraining orders so far?

[BoarSpear]

how many restraining orders so far?

hehehehehe

i asked for it