Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[CrushingFist]

I get what you're saying
Martial Arts world is complicated then

[darrianation]

Ring fighting is not a self-defense. It's, well, ring fighting. You think, strategize, how to do as much damage to your opponent while keeping your strenght and endurance.

In the street, you always consider what action will result you in a lesser damage. In all seriousness, I don't need to prove myself a la Bruce Lee. If someone robs me with a weapon and I have only $20 in my wallet, I'd give it to him without thinking. Yeah, I can possibly take him down. However, I can end up injured or die. If 5 thugs are going to rape my girlfriend, I will fight them despite all the risks.

I have a degree in psychology. There is not much to talk about in "combat psychology". It's a "fight or flight" situation. If you are willing to fight, don't be affraid to die. If you are affraid, run.

When I casually asked my Ngo Cho Kun master on technics to disarm an opponent without hurting the person, he looked at me with a funny look. The look says "what are you, stupid?" All technics in NCK are used to do as much damage as possible in the fastest time possible. An NCK practicioner using his real skills will not survive a ring fighting; he will get disqualified for sure.

One fallacy of martial artists is pride. Once one learns something, one feels inclined to use the arts. Otherwise, he will feel inferior. Once you get over this, you won't ask questions like "what will be more effective in real situation? which style is better?" You just know that you can use it if you want to, but you don't have to use it. This is the essence of self-defense in martial arts.

Ring fighting is a totally different issue.

Behavioral psychology is a subset of psychology and Combat, or fight psychology is a subset of behavioral psychology that a lot of people with even PhDs do not understand. Not too many psychologists get into this field.

I have a degree in Physical education. I took a course in sports psycology and one of the big things we studied was fear and performance anxiety. We just scratch the surface in that course but I learned a lot. One thing I learned is you can’t just tell someone not to be afraid, that doesn’t work. You have to take a systemized approach to develop the warrior mind set. Understanding the roles of biochemical’s in the body and preparing the athlete for its effects and or desensitizing the athlete to these effects.

One area of mental/psychological conditioning we find that is a staple in the military is operant conditioning- Changes in behavior are the result of an individual's response to events (stimuli) that occur in the environment. And for the preparation of individuals to react immediately and reflexively in life threatening situations such as: children in fire drills, pilots repetitively trained to react to emergencies in flight simulators, and law enforcement and military personnel conditioned to fire accurately under stressful combat conditions.

Operant conditioning ensures the warrior's ability to kill, survive, and succeed in the realm of close combat.

An Army study showing that in WWII there were only a 15 to 20% firing rate among American soldiers. New strategies were needed to be implemented. The answer was Operant condition. Deeply ingrained operant conditioning using realistic training and simulations with real time consequences were begun.

As an example of this:

Recent technologies have allowed us to improve training, and the use of realistic three-dimensional man-like mannequins that fell when hit replaced the old standard targets.

Actual force-on-force encounters against live adversaries utilizing paint ball guns and the use of miles gear were the key recipe in the effectiveness of the conditioning process, since it is crucial that the discriminative stimulus used in training be as realistic as possible in its simulation of the actual, anticipated stimulus if the training is to be transferred to reality in a crucial, life-and-death situation.

Since these inclusions of modern technology and methodologies the fire rates have gone up tom 90%.

Note:
MILES gear- Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System, commonly called MILES gear. MILES includes a set of sensors worn on the head and torso and a laser transmitter that attaches to weapons like the M-16 rifle (the M16/4 fires blanks) that simulates real firefights.


Put into martial arts terms read part 2

[darrianation]

Combat psychology part 1

Ring fighting is not a self-defense. It's, well, ring fighting. You think, strategize, how to do as much damage to your opponent while keeping your strenght and endurance.

In the street, you always consider what action will result you in a lesser damage. In all seriousness, I don't need to prove myself a la Bruce Lee. If someone robs me with a weapon and I have only $20 in my wallet, I'd give it to him without thinking. Yeah, I can possibly take him down. However, I can end up injured or die. If 5 thugs are going to rape my girlfriend, I will fight them despite all the risks.

I have a degree in psychology. There is not much to talk about in "combat psychology". It's a "fight or flight" situation. If you are willing to fight, don't be affraid to die. If you are affraid, run.

When I casually asked my Ngo Cho Kun master on technics to disarm an opponent without hurting the person, he looked at me with a funny look. The look says "what are you, stupid?" All technics in NCK are used to do as much damage as possible in the fastest time possible. An NCK practicioner using his real skills will not survive a ring fighting; he will get disqualified for sure.

One fallacy of martial artists is pride. Once one learns something, one feels inclined to use the arts. Otherwise, he will feel inferior. Once you get over this, you won't ask questions like "what will be more effective in real situation? which style is better?" You just know that you can use it if you want to, but you don't have to use it. This is the essence of self-defense in martial arts.

Ring fighting is a totally different issue.

Behavioral psychology is a subset of psychology and Combat, or fight psychology is a subset of behavioral psychology that a lot of people with even PhDs do not understand. Not too many psychologists get into this field.

I have a degree in Physical education. I took a course in sports psycology and one of the big things we studied was fear and performance anxiety. We just scratch the surface in that course but I learned a lot. One thing I learned is you can’t just tell someone not to be afraid, that doesn’t work. You have to take a systemized approach to develop the warrior mind set. Understanding the roles of biochemical’s in the body and preparing the athlete for its effects and or desensitizing the athlete to these effects.

One area of mental/psychological conditioning we find that is a staple in the military is operant conditioning- Changes in behavior are the result of an individual's response to events (stimuli) that occur in the environment. And for the preparation of individuals to react immediately and reflexively in life threatening situations such as: children in fire drills, pilots repetitively trained to react to emergencies in flight simulators, and law enforcement and military personnel conditioned to fire accurately under stressful combat conditions.

Operant conditioning ensures the warrior's ability to kill, survive, and succeed in the realm of close combat.

An Army study showing that in WWII there were only a 15 to 20% firing rate among American soldiers. New strategies were needed to be implemented. The answer was Operant condition. Deeply ingrained operant conditioning using realistic training and simulations with real time consequences were begun.

As an example of this:

Recent technologies have allowed us to improve training, and the use of realistic three-dimensional man-like mannequins that fell when hit replaced the old standard targets.

Actual force-on-force encounters against live adversaries utilizing paint ball guns and the use of miles gear were the key recipe in the effectiveness of the conditioning process, since it is crucial that the discriminative stimulus used in training be as realistic as possible in its simulation of the actual, anticipated stimulus if the training is to be transferred to reality in a crucial, life-and-death situation.

Since these inclusions of modern technology and methodologies the fire rates have gone up tom 90%.

Note:
MILES gear- Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System, commonly called MILES gear. MILES includes a set of sensors worn on the head and torso and a laser transmitter that attaches to weapons like the M-16 rifle (the M16/4 fires blanks) that simulates real firefights.


Put into martial arts terms read part 2

[darrianation]

Combat psychology part 2

In sport Psychology the athlete learns to mentally prepare for an event. Athletes often feel the effects of stress and anxiety. The propose of spot psychology is to reduce fear, and performance anxiety. The same needs to be done for martial artists who need to prepare themselves mentally for combat.

In Russian martial arts the 2 main things that are stressed above all else:

1) Controlling fear
2) Causing an increase in fear in the enemy through intimidation

Just go to any R.O.S.S. seminar and you’ll be a crying like a baby in no time. This is some tough shit.

Fear is a built in safety mechanism that keeps us out of trouble and that’s healthy. We can also have too much fear that can actually work against us causing hesitation this is unhealthy.

Adrenaline is a hormone in the body produced in the adrenal glands. When stimulated by other hormones from the pituitary gland it immediately springs into action.

Humans have been designed to survive emergencies. Suppose you meet an ominous shadowy figure in a dark ally. What happens? Immediately hormones are released that tell the adrenal glands to produce adrenaline (epinephrine). The adrenaline prepares you for vigorous muscular activity. You are now prepared to fight or take flight.

Effects of adrenaline:

1) Pupils dilate
2) Heart rate increases (this is why some people are given epinephrine during cardiac emergencies such as cardiac arrest).
3) Muscles tense up ready for action
4) Bronchodilation occurs so more oxygen can move into the lungs, and more carbon dioxide can move out (this is why people suffering from severe asthma attacks are sometimes injected with epinephrine)
5) Vaso-constriction of superficial arteries occurs; resulting decreased bleeding from superficial wounds, and an increase in blood pressure.
6) The liver will dump sugar into the bloodstream for extra energy

Some people will automatically go into fight mode, because their response to adrenaline will be anger. Some people will run, because their response to adrenaline will be fear. In any case whether it is fear or anger this causes anxiety and stress.

What's wrong with this life-saving response? The anxiety adrenaline can cause can be either good or bad. Sometimes adrenaline can increase very rapidly, and at high levels it can be intense enough to cause panic. Panic can result in slowed responses, tunnel vision, or even temporary paralysis. Even seasoned athletes and martial arts are not immune to this.

Because of that ominous shadowy figure in that dark ally, we need to condition our responses to the adrenaline rush so we do not panic.

Street attacks are often sudden, explosive, and violent. We usually don’t see training of this nature being appropriately applied in most gyms or dojos. We need to have adrenaline response training that occurs under realistic conditions. This will help us overcome negative adrenaline responses and magnify our positive responses and teach us what we really are capable of doing in a stressful situation.

When training realistically you will also learn:

1) How adrenaline affects you,
2) How to appropriately deal with the adrenaline rush
3) What techniques works and what doesn’t under pressure
4) How to take a punch (without panicking) and still continue to fight

you will build confidence, and develop your skill and more importantly improve the application of those skills.

Drills and simulations that realistically portray real life events need to be forged. Drills need to be hard contact with specificity in mind. Scenario training that mimics real life situations- Scenarios involve all our senses that we use during most physical acts such as:


1) Sight
2) Sound
3) Touch
4) Smell
5) Taste

this re-enforces our neuromuscular memorization and allows us to learn certain movements or techniques at a faster rate. The more senses that a stimulated the more real the experience.

Scenario training also allows us to:

1) Simulate real situations
2) Allows us to sharpen our awareness, situational assessment skills, verbal skills, and actual physical techniques.
3) Adds stress and difficulty to our tasks
4) We find out real fast the things that work and those that don’t
5) Allows us to work against non-cooperative opponents
6) It allows spontaneity and changes to mood and direction in real time as the role-playing progresses through the scenes.

The four main things gained through realistic scenario training:

1) Adrenaline response conditioning
2) Decreased fear
3) Faster reaction time
4) Confidence in your abilities


When performing scenarios they need to be as real and accurate as possible for our brains to process it the right way. This means having the correct props for the particular scenario.

* Also use items/weapons such as safety knives, clubs, and guns. When using weapons make sure you use safety knifes, soft clubs, and plastic or rubber guns

* Remember when designing scenarios to add as much chaos and confusion as possible

You need to have
1) A script (flexible so the actors can ad-lib)
2) A defender or victim
3) Actors
4) Props and costumes.
5) A stage or place that resembles the scene.

Example:

If the scenario takes place in a biker bar then the cast should be dressed like bikers and the music in the background should reflect this as well. Set up the bar (Dojo or gym) with beer bottles, chairs and tables. If the attacker is supposed to be drunk douse a little Jack Daniels on his clothing to make it seem more real. Get the idea?

Scenarios should have beginning, middle, and an end:

1) Start with a triggering event
2) or a sudden surprise attack, or ambush
3) Escalation, de-escalation
4) Physical contact, or break away and run.

The defender needs to be aware of all the phases:

Awareness
1) Situational assessment
2) Threat assessment
Avoidance
3) Decision making
4) Verbal de-escalation
5) Escape and evasion
Fighting
6) Physical techniques and the pre-emptive strike

There are more to it But one must always remember the, method of training is the most important thing, you can train hard, but if you train wrong you will not have the same benefit.

[konghan]

Behavioral psychology is a subset of psychology and Combat, or fight psychology is a subset of behavioral psychology that a lot of people with even PhDs do not understand. Not too many psychologists get into this field.

I have a degree in Physical education. I took a course in sports psycology and one of the big things we studied was fear and performance anxiety. We just scratch the surface in that course but I learned a lot. One thing I learned is you can’t just tell someone not to be afraid, that doesn’t work. You have to take a systemized approach to develop the warrior mind set. Understanding the roles of biochemical’s in the body and preparing the athlete for its effects and or desensitizing the athlete to these effects.

One area of mental/psychological conditioning we find that is a staple in the military is operant conditioning- Changes in behavior are the result of an individual's response to events (stimuli) that occur in the environment. And for the preparation of individuals to react immediately and reflexively in life threatening situations such as: children in fire drills, pilots repetitively trained to react to emergencies in flight simulators, and law enforcement and military personnel conditioned to fire accurately under stressful combat conditions.

Operant conditioning ensures the warrior's ability to kill, survive, and succeed in the realm of close combat.

An Army study showing that in WWII there were only a 15 to 20% firing rate among American soldiers. New strategies were needed to be implemented. The answer was Operant condition. Deeply ingrained operant conditioning using realistic training and simulations with real time consequences were begun.

As an example of this:

Recent technologies have allowed us to improve training, and the use of realistic three-dimensional man-like mannequins that fell when hit replaced the old standard targets.

Actual force-on-force encounters against live adversaries utilizing paint ball guns and the use of miles gear were the key recipe in the effectiveness of the conditioning process, since it is crucial that the discriminative stimulus used in training be as realistic as possible in its simulation of the actual, anticipated stimulus if the training is to be transferred to reality in a crucial, life-and-death situation.

Since these inclusions of modern technology and methodologies the fire rates have gone up tom 90%.

Note:
MILES gear- Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System, commonly called MILES gear. MILES includes a set of sensors worn on the head and torso and a laser transmitter that attaches to weapons like the M-16 rifle (the M16/4 fires blanks) that simulates real firefights.


Put into martial arts terms read part 2

Are you saying that you & the west only learned this recently? (WWII). No wonder when it comes to close quater combat or hand to hand they always loose.

In Asia espcially in China that kind of training & mentality has always been part of their military & (I`m gonna piss you off with this for sure, I know how much you hate this word) KUNG FU training!

[darrianation]

Are you saying that you & the west only learned this recently? (WWII). No wonder when it comes to close quater combat or hand to hand they always loose.

In Asia espcially in China that kind of training & mentality has always been part of their military & (I`m gonna piss you off with this for sure, I know how much you hate this word) KUNG FU training!

Yea we are slow learners but you have to remember we americans have only been around for 228 years.Hmmmm......how old is china? anyway once we learn whatch out cuz' we'll shoot right on by! I think we gotcha on the learning curve!

[konghan]

Yea we are slow learners but you have to remember we americans have only been around for 228 years.Hmmmm......how old is china? anyway once we learn whatch out cuz' we'll shoot right on by! I think we gotcha on the learning curve!

Wrong, Americans have been around long ago they were originally UK people or Europeans and No, they are not slow learners, they are just more aggressive & insecured. They just want to be better than everybody else even though nobody is competiting against them they have to create the competition.

USA created the atomic bomb... USSR follow suite
USA created the hydrgen bomb..USSR follow suite
USSR reach space ..................USA quickly follow suite
Now the USA have more nukes & WMD then China or Russia.
China lunch man to space .......USA quickly revive their space exploration program.

They just can`t accept to be second or for somebody to be better than them.

[sherwinc]

Ring fighting is not a self-defense. It's, well, ring fighting. You think, strategize, how to do as much damage to your opponent while keeping your strenght and endurance.

In the street, you always consider what action will result you in a lesser damage. In all seriousness, I don't need to prove myself a la Bruce Lee. If someone robs me with a weapon and I have only $20 in my wallet, I'd give it to him without thinking. Yeah, I can possibly take him down. However, I can end up injured or die.

Very very true,

"To fight and win a thousands of battles is not good, it is better to win a combat without fighting"

If 5 thugs are going to rape my girlfriend, I will fight them despite all the risks.

"But if you fight, you must kill him - with no evidence if possible" comparison of DeathTouch(no evidence) and IronPalm(with evidence)

"The Fastest Way to Die is to refuse to Kill"

"Kill or be killed"

An NCK practicioner using his real skills will not survive a ring fighting; he will get disqualified for sure.

This is what i mean about the kungfu will join in the ring fighting...... the ring fights doesnt start yet but the kungfu will surely defeat - why???? cause all of the hand attacks is all foul to the desicion of the referree

and plenty of fouls done by the kungfu - the referree will shout "You are disqualified!!!!"

or....

maybe the kungfu fighter will enter the jail for the things that he done to his ring opponent.....

example:
if the mantis style kungfu will join the ringfight..... the mantis fighter will probably hit his opponent using his mantis finger to strike 3 fruits (three rapid strikes to the eyes of the opponent) and since his opponent has only two eyes..... then his opponent lost his two eyes and a credit/debt of another 1 eye left........ so the mantis fighter will enter jail for the three eyes that he poke against his opponent in a ring fight.......

how about Southern Eagle Claw KungFu??????? remember.... theres a blood in every clawing strike using his three fingers.....

[Tom Yum]

Very very true,

"To fight and win a thousands of battles is not good, it is better to win a combat without fighting"



"But if you fight, you must kill him - with no evidence if possible" comparison of DeathTouch(no evidence) and IronPalm(with evidence)

"The Fastest Way to Die is to refuse to Kill"

"Kill or be killed"




This is what i mean about the kungfu will join in the ring fighting...... the ring fights doesnt start yet but the kungfu will surely defeat - why???? cause all of the hand attacks is all foul to the desicion of the referree

and plenty of fouls done by the kungfu - the referree will shout "You are disqualified!!!!"

or....

maybe the kungfu fighter will enter the jail for the things that he done to his ring opponent.....

example:
if the mantis style kungfu will join the ringfight..... the mantis fighter will probably hit his opponent using his mantis finger to strike 3 fruits (three rapid strikes to the eyes of the opponent) and since his opponent has only two eyes..... then his opponent lost his two eyes and a credit/debt of another 1 eye left........ so the mantis fighter will enter jail for the three eyes that he poke against his opponent in a ring fight.......

how about Southern Eagle Claw KungFu??????? remember.... theres a blood in every clawing strike using his three fingers.....

Sherwinc, good points man. There's some good stuff in Kung fu.

In my opinion traditional training methods are stale and out of touch. Instead of forms and deep stances, why not teach basic techniques, footwork, shadow fighting and dynamic sparring?

How often does the mantis kung fu guy have fast, hard punches thrown at his face? He'll fall apart when the pressure is real if he practices against a compliant opponent. Compliance is good at first to learn the technique, but after a while things have to get dynamic. How can you be confident of nailing the other guy with your technique if you've never done it before? Do you know how he's going to react? How do you know he's not going to cover, block, move away or counter? And if so, are you prepaired?

How is the eagle kungfu guy supposed to practice his techniques realistically without hurting someone? You can't rip each other apart and expect to comeback the next day. Some kind of safety glove should be designed to let kungfu guys use their fingers and hands realistically while sparring, but not to the extent that they will seriously damage their partner. Hand/forearm conditioning could probably be done seperately without sparring.

[sherwinc]

Also, kung fu has & is still evolving. Many great masters have been doing their own research in improving kung fu not only as a combat "sport" but further medical & health benefits.

That`s how ngo cho kun was founded it was base on combining the best techniques of 5 great masters & consolidating them into one.

Decendants of ngo cho kun up to the present are still continuing finding ways to improve ngo cho kun kung fu.

and that's the reason why i am not contented with my ChiDianBun KungFu, so, i love to expand my knowledge by mixing it with WingChun KungFu and an expansion NgoChoKun KungFu to complete my ShortDistance KungFu Techniques..... while learning AngKa KungFu, SpringLeg Style KungFu, 7-Star Praying Mantis KungFu - for my LongDistance KungFu Techniques.....

and to complete the blend of Short/Long Distance Techniques.... i continue practice my Hik, Chua, Tan, Yang, and Kiaw TaiChiChuan 5 Family Styles/Systems

[Tom Yum]

i continue practice my Hik, Chua, Tan, Yang, and Kiaw TaiChiChuan 5 Family Styles/Systems

I bet the 'hick' system is more deadly than the others. Do you smash moonshine bottles over each other's head...jj.

[CrushingFist]

I guess you're right
Forget Ring FIghting
How about Actual Combat? Have you ever experienced a street fight and used your traditional kung-fu?

[sherwinc]

I guess you're right
Forget Ring FIghting
How about Actual Combat? Have you ever experienced a street fight and used your traditional kung-fu?

Yes, i really used my tarditional KungFu in a streetfight by what?????

by avoiding trouble when someone is already a highblood anger wants to fight - i usually turn back and walk away by saying "No, I wont fight cause i am helpless and sick" so, i already win......

remember:
To win a fight without fighting is the highest achievement in KungFu, not by those of fighting while winning a thousands of battles....

and i already counquer myself using my KungFu...... you notice why when i post my text unto this defend.net forum - the text that i entered here unto my keyboard is too plenty?????? cause i am one of the fastest typist using computer keyboard and my only secret is my theory of WingChun's Autopilot Chi Sau

my eyes never look unto the keyboard when i type, just like those not looking unto the opponents hands and eyes while performing Chi Sau.....

Note:
the more i get errors on the text i type here - i usually intercept it using Backspace Key - but if i missed pressing the backspace key, then, it is like that the enemy hits me that i dont block his attacking hands.......

truely KungFu is applicable in any ways, it is life, KungFu for life, it has a prearrange pattern for allmost anything......

My KungFu is good in Keyboard entering text - "Ability" "Skill"

and kungfu is not just for fighting only - remember???????

you are a sure winner if you win a fight without fighting

[sherwinc]

I bet the 'hick' system is more deadly than the others. Do you smash moonshine bottles over each other's head...jj.

Hik Tai Chi - Chi Dian Bun KungFu (merged)

Chua Tai Chi - Ngo Cho Kun KungFu (merged)

Yang Tai Chi - Yang Tai Chi

Tan Tai Chi - Tan Tai Chi

Kiaw Tai Chi - Kiaw Tai Chi

[Thai Bri]

Yes, i really used my tarditional KungFu in a streetfight by what?????

by avoiding trouble when someone is already a highblood anger wants to fight - i usually turn back and walk away by saying "No, I wont fight cause i am helpless and sick" so, i already win......

remember:
To win a fight without fighting is the highest achievement in KungFu, not by those of fighting while winning a thousands of battles....

and i already counquer myself using my KungFu...... you notice why when i post my text unto this defend.net forum - the text that i entered here unto my keyboard is too plenty?????? cause i am one of the fastest typist using computer keyboard and my only secret is my theory of WingChun's Autopilot Chi Sau

my eyes never look unto the keyboard when i type, just like those not looking unto the opponents hands and eyes while performing Chi Sau.....

Note:
the more i get errors on the text i type here - i usually intercept it using Backspace Key - but if i missed pressing the backspace key, then, it is like that the enemy hits me that i dont block his attacking hands.......

truely KungFu is applicable in any ways, it is life, KungFu for life, it has a prearrange pattern for allmost anything......

My KungFu is good in Keyboard entering text - "Ability" "Skill"

and kungfu is not just for fighting only - remember???????

you are a sure winner if you win a fight without fighting

This is beginning to make sense to me. Either I'm achieving a higher plane of understanding.........

Or I've lost me bloody onions! Haw haw haw!