The reality of Kungfu

[darrianation]

Shredding is great! I like to experiment with all the different techniques and combinations of techniques; it's fun to practice (but painful), and effective.

[chimpgimp]

Dude, I've been doing Ju Jitsu and Judo for 8 years, also studied some TKD, and some MMA, but my training is focused on Hsing Yi Ch'uan at the moment.

I am by NO means a novice. I've defeated TKDers, other Ju-Jitsu people, a wrestler (who is my disciple now), some brawlers, and my brother in a Judo rules competition(who is 6 feet and 210 lbs of pure muscle, and also does Ju-Jitsu/Judo)

Are you calling me stupid? I am NOT in junior high, idiot. I code C++ and do creative writing as a hobby outside of MA. Holy shit dude, just shut up now, and stop judging me. Only the MMA people act "superior", and talk about how much people like me suck. ONLY people like you. Grow up.

Alex,

You are spot on, there are a large number of so callled mma who do nothing but troll. Rather than any constructive comments it's all "your art is shit , i did it for 5 minutes and it weas rubbish, now I am a mma and could kick your ass or I am special forces" or some other bollocks. You know who you are !

I am confident enough in my art not to need to denegrate others. Every thing has it's value, I have come from boxing, thai / kick boxing , mma to wing chun and find it superior to them, but that's just for me. I appreciate that others might not be able to make it work for them ,but that does n't mean it 's shit.

MMa is a sport with rules, fighting is not, just because you train traditional it does not mean you train unrealistically or do not pressure test your art. Yes some schools live in an idealistic unreal world , but not all of us do.

MMA's are not the only people who put themselves on the line. So callled no rules fighting/ vale tudo is anything but. In reality you must deal with weapons, multiple opponents. strikes to the groin, eyes, throat , joints etc. , all things disallowed in mma. Anyone who thinks ground fighting on the street is a good idea is an absolute wanker and has n't got a clue. Yes fights may end up there but if you 've any sense you won't go there if you can help it.

i consiously moved away from the hard arts because I realised I could not train them for ever. I am glad I did I found far more sophistication and reality training in the soft arts I played.

Alex , dont't fret yourself about the trollsd on this board, it is onlt there insecurity that makes them feel the need to critise others.

[sherwinc]

Weapons beats empty hands,

Very True......

mental toughness beats physical toughness,

Very True again......

and physical toughness often beats technique.

Extremely Wrong......

why???????

cause a Physical Toughness Fighter learned Vast Techniques will surely beat his opponent who is also a Physical Toughness but only learns 6 hand attacking alphabets......

1. Jab, 2. Cross, 3. Hook, 4. RoundHouse, 5. Uppercut, 6. StraightPunch

Note:
in KungFu, YOU CAN USE YOUR TECHNIQUE ONLY ONCE..... the moment you attack your opponent with THE SAME TECHNIQUE THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY USED ON HIM will lead you to disadvantages.......

You need to be aggressive, you need to be brutal, and you need to hit, hit, and hit! Use palm strikes, web hands (to the throat), hammer fists, punches, ridge hands, reverse ridge hands, elbows, knees, head buts, bite, kick him in the balls, stomp his knee, tiger claw and other eye gouging techniques, but keep on striking until he is no longer a threat! Forget about the aesthetics of flowery movements; just go brutal on his ass.

Very True......

why?????

cause all of techniques that you mention are also found in KungFu.....

[AlexJitsu]

Yeah, sherwinc is right, I mean, isn't the whole point of martial arts (physically)so you can beat up people larger than you?

[jubaji]

Yeah, sherwinc is right, I mean, isn't the whole point of martial arts (physically)so you can beat up people larger than you?

...................................................................

[yentao]

Try your intercepting, forearm-bashing, neutralizing shit on him; he’ll take your head off! And more than likely he is armed with the biggest nastiest knife you ever saw!

Be careful when relying on techniques that use reaction instead of action (like forearm- bashing, intercepting, trapping, etc), exact timing, and precision targeting. Unpredictability Stress, fear, and adrenaline interfere with fine motor movements, changes perception, decrease or distort reaction time, and throws off timing.

Techniques like the ones you are referring to rely on performing the technique with such preciseness, and flawlessness that under such extremes as Bubba suddenly, brutally, and violently attacking you have a higher fail rate.

Stop worshiping technique!

Weapons beats empty hands, mental toughness beats physical toughness, and physical toughness often beats technique. You need to be aggressive, you need to be brutal, and you need to hit, hit, and hit! Use palm strikes, web hands (to the throat), hammer fists, punches, ridge hands, reverse ridge hands, elbows, knees, head buts, bite, kick him in the balls, stomp his knee, tiger claw and other eye gouging techniques, but keep on striking until he is no longer a threat! Forget about the aesthetics of flowery movements; just go brutal on his ass.

Bravery is still an asset that will help you. But should avoid wrecklessness. Actually anything goes if you are efficient in anything that you feel will work. I live complicated things in tournaments and sparrings.

If you hold weapons your concentration is on your weapon not in the other parts of your body unlike you are empty handed. Get close to him and use grappling in the weapon hand or just get yourself a weapon when your in a distant. I don't believe forearm bashing is a flowery movement. It goes on with the territory of proper blocking and your strong arms it goes natural when you trained enough you dont even have to think about it will work along with your offense and defense.

I hope you don't forget the fact that when you are in a real fight anything goes and the guy you against at is still a human and capable of things you can do. That's where your martial arts advantage come in.

[darrianation]

Yeah, sherwinc is right, I mean, isn't the whole point of martial arts (physically)so you can beat up people larger than you?

What I mean (I am sure you will disagree) by physical toughness often (not always) beats technique is this:

Physical toughness has a little to do with size more to do with resilience, resistance to injury. The guy you can hit with a baseball and he’ll give you a wink, he could also be the large football player looking bouncer at a bar with little or no training who will demolish most martial artists. I am a big guy, and I have beaten far better (technically) martial artists because I can hit harder and use my weight/size to my advantage. Smaller fighters can beat bigger ones on their physical toughness, resilience, and resistance to pain and injury, barring the bigger guy doesn’t have the mental/physical toughness of the smaller person. But generally speaking, for a smaller fighter to beat a bigger fighter, the smaller fighter has to have the mental/psychological toughness to do it (usually).

A good fighter rather in self-defense or the ring has certain attributes that allow him to have a better chance at winning.

In order of importance

1) Mental/psychological attributes- intelligence, the ability to deal with stress, fear, and adrenaline, will, determination, tenacity, and etc.

2) Physical attributes- strength, speed, timing, resilience/resistance to pain/injury, and etc.


3) Mechanical attributes- His techniques

Now I have skipped some stuff like hard training, proper and specific training, etc, but the above three is showing that the actual techniques are the least important of the three.

I know people (martial artists) that can perform marvelous works of wonder, flawless routines, and perfect techniques. But they couldn’t fight there way out of a paper bag. And Vis versa I know guys who look awful performing their techniques, but can fight and win just about anyone. I am one of them, My sensei on a couple of occasions made me perform in the kata portion of the tourneys, I would come in dead last place, but I would dominate in the Kumite. Anyway that’s why I made the statement “physical toughness often beats technique.

Hey Alex, that seems quite the change from JJ and Judo to Hsing Yi Ch'uan. Why the change? What do you get in Hsing that JJ/J didn’t give you? And all culture/spiritualism aside what are your thoughts of Hsing Yi Chuan compared to JJ/J for self-defense? Sorry for all the questions, but that’s seems a very interesting change. I think Judo is pretty damn cool! I think Judo, boxing, then throw in some weapons training, is pretty damn effective for personal protection.

Chimpgimp, There are some obvious differences in MMA versus Self-defense, but one of the things I see in the MMA is they are often more mentally tough as well have greater physical attributes than the average TMA guy. I think this gives them an edge, learning or modifying their techniques (eye gouges, throat strikes, kick to the nuts, etc) is very easy to do, without much fuss, plus they can fight in all the ranges, which is very important (kicking, punching, clinching, and ground). Of course what they still lack would be weapons. Any way just my thoughts, I am not to keen on TMAs.

[darrianation]

Bravery is still an asset that will help you. But should avoid wrecklessness. Actually anything goes if you are efficient in anything that you feel will work. I live complicated things in tournaments and sparrings.

If you hold weapons your concentration is on your weapon not in the other parts of your body unlike you are empty handed. Get close to him and use grappling in the weapon hand or just get yourself a weapon when your in a distant. I don't believe forearm bashing is a flowery movement. It goes on with the territory of proper blocking and your strong arms it goes natural when you trained enough you dont even have to think about it will work along with your offense and defense.

I hope you don't forget the fact that when you are in a real fight anything goes and the guy you against at is still a human and capable of things you can do. That's where your martial arts advantage come in.

Yento, did I ever tell you I like you sig? Anyway how true.

Have you ever noticed that when you watch a kung Fu demonstration, these guys perform miraculous feats of beauty with the precision of an Olympic gymnast? But when these guys fight they look totally different, why? When I was watching some Paul Vulnek (sp?) tapes, he indorses and does a lot of trapping, but when I watched the advanced tape with free sparring his advanced student’s did not perform a single trap, why?

Hmmmm… It seems to me there is a difference between the theory and practice in the training hall and the realities of real fighting.

And no, I wont forget “the fact that when you are in a real fight anything goes and the guy you against at is still a human and capable of things you can do. That's where your martial arts advantage come in”.

[jubaji]

Bravery is still an asset that will help you. But should avoid wrecklessness. Actually anything goes if you are efficient in anything that you feel will work. I live complicated things in tournaments and sparrings.



I hope you don't forget the fact that when you are in a real fight anything goes and the guy you against at is still a human and capable of things you can do. That's where your martial arts advantage come in.

Ah, wisdom from the 'master'

[darrianation]

You need to be aggressive, you need to be brutal, and you need to hit, hit, and hit! Use palm strikes, web hands (to the throat), hammer fists, punches, ridge hands, reverse ridge hands, elbows, knees, head buts, bite, kick him in the balls, stomp his knee, tiger claw and other eye gouging techniques, but keep on striking until he is no longer a threat! Forget about the aesthetics of flowery movements; just go brutal on his ass.

Very True......

why?????

cause all of techniques that you mention are also found in KungFu.....

Yes, you know there are only so many ways you can move the human body, so many ways the a joint can be articulated, that means there are only so many ways you can use the human body as a weapon.

So, it comes to no surprise that many of the same techniques can be found in many different systems. Some found their way from the blending of systems or becuase off shoots of systems. However even when there are systems with no connection with each other they can still have the same techniques or similar version of those same technique.

It is also interesting to note; that when the shit hits the fan the same basic techniques keep coming up over and over again. Regardless of style or system, there are similar characteristics that come through and the same patterns can be observed.

The techniques that are used most often are the same, and it is also interesting to note; those same techniques are usually the most effective ones that seem to work most often on a consistent basis. Such as a boxer’s jab, or a karateka’s front punch, an elbow, knees, Palm strikes, ridge hands, hammer fists, clinches, front kicks, round kicks and etc. All are in most styles and systems, all are effective, all are fairly common in real fighting. When it’s all broken down to its lowest common denominator the effective techniques are the same regardless of which system they came from.

The rest is just all stylized bull shit!

[AlexJitsu]

I never really switched from Judo/JJ to Hsing Yi. My JJ/Judo class is only once a week, and I was opting for some more involvement in MA. So now, I do Hsing Yi 3 times a week. I still take the JJ/Judo class, however.

The problem with Judo/JJ is the lack of striking (overall). Hsing Yi Ch'uan is primarily a punching art, however, deep inside it contains grappling (and good grappling too). I saw a video with some Hsing Yi grappling and it looked very similar to Ju Jitsu armbars, etc.

Overall, I think Hsing Yi is a very complete system. It contains hand striking, foot striking, grappling, Qigong, proper mindset, based on principles, and more. Also, Hsing Yi practitioners have defeated many other styles before, like in this video:

http://neurology.med.upenn.edu/%7Ejason/fights/Tournament-XingYi.vs.WingChun.mov

...also, ignore the title, it's incorrect. It is Hsing Yi vs. Sanda (San Shou). Later in the fight the San Shou man gets knocked out. The Hsing Yi fighter is one of the Black Taoists.

One problem with most martial artists is mindset. A lot of so called "karate kids" at my school, when they spar or fight, they always wait for an attack (their first move is almost always to block a punch), and are almost always on the defensive. Unfortunately, you can't win a fight this way without getting lucky.

In the video above, the TMA demonstrates a somewhat effective mindset of being on the offensive. He hit hard, and despite the fact that it may look a bit "dirty" to you external gung fu people, his footwork is actually correct and he is using the technique of "Crushing fist" or Beng Chuan. It is regarded as one of the hardest punches in CMA.

[yentao]

Yento, did I ever tell you I like you sig? Anyway how true.

Have you ever noticed that when you watch a kung Fu demonstration, these guys perform miraculous feats of beauty with the precision of an Olympic gymnast? But when these guys fight they look totally different, why? When I was watching some Paul Vulnek (sp?) tapes, he indorses and does a lot of trapping, but when I watched the advanced tape with free sparring his advanced student’s did not perform a single trap, why?

Hmmmm… It seems to me there is a difference between the theory and practice in the training hall and the realities of real fighting.

And no, I wont forget “the fact that when you are in a real fight anything goes and the guy you against at is still a human and capable of things you can do. That's where your martial arts advantage come in”.

I always tried to avoid comparing. Any martial art will look different in training and real fight. Competing in a tournament is a another form of training it so different in the real fight, the feeling and intensity of situation affects your performance. In a ring you got a referee to control the fight and judges to score you. In a real fight no one will stop you doing those things you just said in the other posts (kick him the balls) I also like your sig you keep me from posting. You earned my attention.

[yentao]

Ah, wisdom from the 'master'

thanks for the compliment grandmaster

I never seen you posted something worth to read it grandma.

[yentao]

You need to be aggressive, you need to be brutal, and you need to hit, hit, and hit! Use palm strikes, web hands (to the throat), hammer fists, punches, ridge hands, reverse ridge hands, elbows, knees, head buts, bite, kick him in the balls, stomp his knee, tiger claw and other eye gouging techniques, but keep on striking until he is no longer a threat! Forget about the aesthetics of flowery movements; just go brutal on his ass.



Yes, you know there are only so many ways you can move the human body, so many ways the a joint can be articulated, that means there are only so many ways you can use the human body as a weapon.

So, it comes to no surprise that many of the same techniques can be found in many different systems. Some found their way from the blending of systems or becuase off shoots of systems. However even when there are systems with no connection with each other they can still have the same techniques or similar version of those same technique.

It is also interesting to note; that when the shit hits the fan the same basic techniques keep coming up over and over again. Regardless of style or system, there are similar characteristics that come through and the same patterns can be observed.

The techniques that are used most often are the same, and it is also interesting to note; those same techniques are usually the most effective ones that seem to work most often on a consistent basis. Such as a boxer’s jab, or a karateka’s front punch, an elbow, knees, Palm strikes, ridge hands, hammer fists, clinches, front kicks, round kicks and etc. All are in most styles and systems, all are effective, all are fairly common in real fighting. When it’s all broken down to its lowest common denominator the effective techniques are the same regardless of which system they came from.

The rest is just all stylized bull shit!

Just kick him in the balls huh? Did you duel before? Ever fought with you cousin or you boss? Will you kick his nuts? Hey how about if you are against a girl? Punch them in the b(0)(0)bs huh?

[Nothingness]

There is no complete system. The maker of the system made it suitable to his own posture. You need to learn skills that are best adapted to your own posture. It doesn't matter punching, kicking, grappling, etc. This should be done in a light of one core discipline. One strong basic core discipline and a lot of knowledge from others; shaped like "T". I am strongly against mixing everything in an early stage; the person will never understand the nucleus of the system if learning this way.

I was fond when I opened a Systema web page on the other day. The movements seem to be really similar to what I understand as efficient movements. Apparently, the training method is different with me, but whatever effective is effective in reality.