The reality of Kungfu

[darrianation]

Show is for show but if you are talking about advance forms being ineffective is b. shitting. Demonstrations is really just for demo. Is TMA all demonstrations? No it is not. What are you trying to say about tma? It became traditional because it was use for a long time pass by generations. Gracie Jujitsu used for a longtime will eventually be traditional. Same with boxing and savate. Talking about TMAs you are also referring to other systems, be specific can you?

You should not generalized them all. Maybe stylish demonstration crap like you see in wushu shows, but not tma for show. It doesn't mean you can't use it, others can't. Fighters differ in fighting styles and capabilities. It also doesn't mean you can't seem to know a way to make it effective it can't be use at all. You need feedbacks you need someone adept in this system and then discuss with him or her which you seem ineffective.

I have discussed this in detail already. So, I don’t have much to add, but lets suffice it to say, there are techniques that the general martial artist with average physical attributes can perform under stress, fear, excitement, and adrenaline on a consistent level against opponents of varying skill, physical, mental/psychological attributes. These techniques are generally the gross motor, simple to learn, and easy to retain skills (basics)

Then there are those who can make the finer motor skills work some of the time but not other times, or inconsistent under the above conditions.

Then fewer yet, there are those who can make the fine motor skilled techniques work consistently under the above conditions. These guys are the exception to the rule, or the guys who have put 20 or 30 years of training into their art.

In a SD situation the only thing that counts is that at the end of the day you make it home. Training 1 year or 30 to have the same outcome is the difference.

[darrianation]

Remember we are not just talking technique. Which type of techniques; gross motor versus fine motor are important, but how the techniques are trained is also important.

Classical weapons which you have mentioned is an good example. In my Karate days my favorite weapon was the “BO”. It was very fun to twirl around and mimics hmmm….a pool cue, 2x4, a tree branch just to name a few. But the problem is not with the “BO” but in the way the “BO” was taught. Kata, pre-arranged cooperative, and predictable drills , builds bad habits, and reinforces bad/incorrect neuromuscle memory. This diminishes the gains from the “BO’, or any other weapons training. In other words less out than what you put in meaning inefficiency.

Again the same goes for empty hand techniques. As an example I will use Karate. Karate is a basic art, meaning that it does not rely on a large arsenal, nor does it rely on a lot of fine motor skilled techniques.

So, why isn’t karate functionally effective? because they rely on bad training, I have actually explained this many times in different threads/posts (see the baby food thread in the Japanese MA section for more details on proper training methods),
Just to name a few:

1) Holding punches out
2) Cocking the hand at the waist or ribs
3) Pre-arranges drills such as step sparring or Bunki
4) Kata
5) kicking and punching thin air
6) Dead drills, or predictable drills
7) light contact sparring, sparring like a game of tag
8) Lack of mindset, and psychological training

ETC, ETC, and ETC.

Many of these things diminish your returns, and may even develop poor neuromuscle memory. Neuromuscle memory allows you to fight without having to think, while you are in a state of fear, anxiety, and with your adrenalin pumping.

So now you see that it’s not always about the techniques but also how you train as well.

[yentao]

I got what you said. But Kata is use a form of body strengthening exercise. I wouldn't know about karate but in Kung Fu it was a different. I think in karate and kung fu it is functional and give a role into it. Techniques are useless if no power and strength is applied with it, it needs kata for the training that gives those techniques to be functional. Then sparring with the use of armor and head gears. Tapping are for training in hitting vital parts. But armored body parts should be hit with power.

[darrianation]

I never really switched from Judo/JJ to Hsing Yi. My JJ/Judo class is only once a week, and I was opting for some more involvement in MA. So now, I do Hsing Yi 3 times a week. I still take the JJ/Judo class, however.

The problem with Judo/JJ is the lack of striking (overall). Hsing Yi Ch'uan is primarily a punching art, however, deep inside it contains grappling (and good grappling too). I saw a video with some Hsing Yi grappling and it looked very similar to Ju Jitsu armbars, etc.

Overall, I think Hsing Yi is a very complete system. It contains hand striking, foot striking, grappling, Qigong, proper mindset, based on principles, and more. Also, Hsing Yi practitioners have defeated many other styles before, like in this video:

http://neurology.med.upenn.edu/%7Ejason/fights/Tournament-XingYi.vs.WingChun.mov

...also, ignore the title, it's incorrect. It is Hsing Yi vs. Sanda (San Shou). Later in the fight the San Shou man gets knocked out. The Hsing Yi fighter is one of the Black Taoists.

One problem with most martial artists is mindset. A lot of so called "karate kids" at my school, when they spar or fight, they always wait for an attack (their first move is almost always to block a punch), and are almost always on the defensive. Unfortunately, you can't win a fight this way without getting lucky.

In the video above, the TMA demonstrates a somewhat effective mindset of being on the offensive. He hit hard, and despite the fact that it may look a bit "dirty" to you external gung fu people, his footwork is actually correct and he is using the technique of "Crushing fist" or Beng Chuan. It is regarded as one of the hardest punches in CMA.

Well, I saw the clip, and....I hate to say this but it looked like two 12 year old TKD kids trying to box. But I get your point....I guess. anyway, peace.

[AlexJitsu]

Well, I saw the clip, and....I hate to say this but it looked like two 12 year old TKD kids trying to box. But I get your point....I guess. anyway, peace.

No, you just don't understand the system. Black Taoist's punches are far harder than boxing punches. Just look at his footwork, especially on the last punch. The feet move right when the punch strikes, so thus he's using his whole body weight to smash the opponent. Also, in Hsing Yi a strike is also a block, so he is effectively defending himself.

[jubaji]

No, you just don't understand the system. Black Taoist's punches are far harder than boxing punches.

Oh, brother...

[AlexJitsu]

Oh, brother...

You're a tool. It's a scientific fact. Body mass = stronger than muscles. If you weigh 160 lb, you sure as hell can't hit with 160 lbs of force using muscles.

[jubaji]

You're a tool. It's a scientific fact. Body mass = stronger than muscles. If you weigh 160 lb, you sure as hell can't hit with 160 lbs of force using muscles.

LOL

[sherwinc]

Also, in Hsing Yi a strike is also a block,

Just what i said before, in KungFu...... in every unique form (alphabets) there are 6-to-more unique applications each..... you dont need to think or a pre-arranged fights..... your two arms and two legs are independently moving on their own and you have to follow it, not to resist.......

Key:
1. Sensitivity
2. ChiSau
3. TweeChiu
4. etc.......

[sherwinc]

No, you just don't understand the system. Black Taoist's punches are far harder than boxing punches. Just look at his footwork, especially on the last punch. The feet move right when the punch strikes, so thus he's using his whole body weight to smash the opponent.

In KungFu, a fist is not just a fist...... the whole body becomes a fist.....

and that is the reason why Chinese Boxing(KungFu) is more powerful puncher compare to Western Boxing with 6 fighting alphabets......

example:
1. Rooted to the ground, with a very very low stance......

2. Iron Palm from the Southern KungFu and Poison Hand from the Northern KungFu

3. etc.......

[Nothingness]

I don't think the clip is a good representative. Let me focus on the person in the blue guard. First, he looks tense. This is fatal. Second, he was only focused in one technique. It looks like that he had a "I am gonna finish this mofo using this punch.". This is also fatal, the reflex will not work to the max. Third, his execution was sloppy. He was punching too farfetched and the balance was broken. In the last punch, his right foot was floating. Other than losing balance, he also lost some power from executing the punch that way.

I met a Xingyi master on the other day. He showed me a proper beng quan. Please pardon me, but the punch in this cliip looks more like a sloppy straight than a beng quan.

[sherwinc]

Heres an Experiment:

to test if whose of them a powerful puncher......

1. try to punch the concrete wall 10 times using your Western Boxing Fist very very hard and see the result.....

2. try to punch the concrete wall 10 times using KungFu's Iron Palm or KungFu's Poison Hand Palm very very hard and see the result......

Question:
now whose to be powerful?????

and what will happened to a Western Boxers Fist after 10 times hitting the concrete wall?????

[sherwinc]

Well your knuckles would be split in two; unless if somebody week like you punches the wall. The nature of two nuckles hitting is to concentrate that energy in a smaller area (thus yielding greater PSI) to do more damage when the strike starts plowing into the opponent's body mass. Now if you're done moderate knuckle hardening and your nuckles are young you shouldn't have a problem when striking bones which break, soft tissue, and muscle mass.

Now I'm assuming that your (drum roll) KungFu's Iron Palm, and KungFu's Poison Hand Palm are slight variations on the Palm Heal. If that's the case the Palm Heel has a greater initial contact area thus meaning lower PSI which means that less force is exerted per square inch of the area contacting meaning that a cement wall can be hit with less damage being done. Unless of course you hit it right and get an blood clod, or anerism.

So the nature of the experiment that you gave us is FLAWED. If you want to test the power of the strike its self, punch a bag and see which moves further. Just tie weight underneath the bag, mark where the weight is. Hit the bag, mark where the weight lands. Put weight back to starting mark, hit bag with other strike and mark where weight lands. You'd want to rotate the order of the strikes, and do this a few time.

My guess is that the classic boxing punch is far more powerful, due to the shoulder, twisting body mass, and weight being thrown into it.

Then why is it that when you accidentally fall down to the ground, you tend to use your PALM to support instead of using your FIST to support the ground?????

then why is it that when you push very hard the heavy table, cabinet, heavy object.... you tend to push it using your PALM and not your FIST??????

then why is it that when someone aims you a gun and claiming a Hold-Up and get your money, then why is it that you raise your both PALMS and not your FIST??????

Performing CPR to save opponents lives are done in PALMS, and not with FISTS...

then why is it that since your an infant and start learning to crawl, why is it you are using your PALM and not your FIST??????

PALMS are more stronger compare to FIST

Convinced???????

[AlexJitsu]

Well, actually, I use my fists to open doors and etc, for sanitation reasons.

[yentao]

You didn't use it very well.

That's what we call informal writing ma'am but if you want to revise my work i'll be glad to edit it. Anything else Jumanji?