How do kungfu guys fight Boxers ?

[Studiobuddy]

Look I am a big fan of boxing and I respect it lots, but I reckon that any style of Kung-Fu whether it is preying mantis, wing chun, Tiger, snake or what ever but I guess it all depends on their dedication but if they are dedicated enough expert boxers have no chance, if KF fighters have little dedication then they are screwed, I agree, they have to respect the boxers abilities. There is a saying that I always think is true: THE DEADLIEST WEAPON IS USELESS IN THE HANDS OF A MORON. TheMantis

No they do have a chance still

Example:

Just because I play a Les Paul really really good, doesnt mean i'm automatically better sounding than the strat player

[Studiobuddy]

its more about the person than good style and good skill

[TheMantis]

No they do have a chance still

Example:

Just because I play a Les Paul really really good, doesnt mean i'm automatically better sounding than the strat player

I agree with your opinion and you would know more than me,Im only 13 yrs old. I know some stuff my self because i've read books, watched enough docos about martial arts, admittedly probably not as much as yourself. My big brother learns Praying Mantis, has done for years, and I've seen him go at it, I reckon he'd go pretty good against a boxer. Thats probably where I was coming from.. Could you tell me what you meant by: Les Paul and strat player are? Violins??? TheMantis

[sherwinc]

Is there kungfu style which allows u to fight boxers like Frank Bruno, Jack Dempsey, Mohammed Ali ?. My friend says that a boxer can beat hell into a kungfu guy. He says this guy who was studying some deadly form of praying mantis got his ass whipped by a boxer.

Does this mean kungfu is a waist of time for self defense ?. If a chinese master from china fights a boxer will he win ?

If Muhammed Ali only knows KungFu, he will use WingChun's Biu Sau to strike any boxers eyes......

then the people will truely convinced for what they see, ......... a strong built, heavy weight, fast and powerful fighter who only knows WingChun..... then they say "WingChun as a Deadly form of KungFu" because Muhammed Ali used it to his opponent.....

[John05]

No i expect boxer to come in with a a jab, jab, cross, hook or something like that and watching the elbows will help me see the punches as i position myself on his blind side and counterattack.

I keep hearing you watching the elbow to check for incoming jabs.

You must be pretty damn quick. I consider myself VERY lucky to dodge a fast jab. Watching the elbow doesn't do anything for me. The jab comes straight and fast unless it's executed improperly.

Frankly, I think you know way more about kung fu than you do about boxing.

[EmptyneSs]

I really impressed about the fitness of the Western Boxers cause they have their stamina in always good condition.....

me???? i cant complete finish jogging even just 1 round in a sports complex oval.......

i have a very poor stamina......

stamina is one of the most important things shirwin, that is why boxing is better, it gives u stamina, while your arts do not. convinced?


" fear the one with the hardcore cardio endurance "

[EmptyneSs]

btw the reason boxing as an ma is a usually better is because of the kind of person its training makes u.not only do u have to do alot of workouts and conditioning, but u have to fight. unless ur a pussy, ur gonna be sparring and fighting all the time in boxing. it makes u tenacious, agressive, and tough the way alot of arts dont. ur endurance is one of the most important things.

alsoi think some styles are better, because they are more proficient, thats why muay thai and boxing are 2 of the best.these 2 arts are just so simple and effective. boxing is so underrated.u wont realize how great boxing is until u actually take part in it. i spar at my school all the time, and its always great when i spar someone who has a backround in karate, or tkd, or kung fu, and most of them, their many years of training dont even stand a chance against the 8 months of mt + boxing ive done.

[koto_ryu]

Look I am a big fan of boxing and I respect it lots, but I reckon that any style of Kung-Fu whether it is preying mantis, wing chun, Tiger, snake or what ever but I guess it all depends on their dedication but if they are dedicated enough expert boxers have no chance, if KF fighters have little dedication then they are screwed, I agree, they have to respect the boxers abilities. There is a saying that I always think is true: THE DEADLIEST WEAPON IS USELESS IN THE HANDS OF A MORON. TheMantis

Unless said idiot has a nuclear weapon with a big red button, not too hard to mess that up.

[samekh]

It's not just me or my defense system, its more of he's better than me and I just need to keep practicing my techniques. I've watched my friend k.o. opponents in the ring that are in the 20's and 30's. He's only 16 and a licensed boxer. I have sparred with a less experienced boxer that I could get him with and inside block to backfist. Though professional boxers are hard to beat, a good boxer can basically just walk through your defense and attack, then retreat before you counter in some cases. What makes me think a boxer can wrestle? Well not necessarily wrestle but still beats some one's ass on the ground. Have you ever seen the match between Ali and the world's greatest wrestler?

I am not criticizing your ability. What I mean is that there is no foolproof ultimate fighting system. It is all about how good each fighter is. If you are having a problem with how boxers advance, you should go to your teacher and ask him to teach you to deal with a boxer's strategy. If a fighter is too powerful for you and "walks through" your attack, you should learn to be more yielding. The softer fighter will always win. It is the only way to maintain control. If another fighter is that strong, you shouldn't meet him head on. That is the major fault of blow for blow fighting(boxing, Karate, Tae Kwon Don't, Shoto Can't), the stronger guy will win. Don't be intimidated of a fighting system because one fighter impressed you. Perhaps that person is just very good.
And like I said about fighters... its is the individual fighter and his application, not what system he subscribes to. I guess ali was a better fight on the ground than the wrestler. But remember... wrestlers are bum rushers and boxing takes skill.

[John05]

I agree with your opinion and you would know more than me,Im only 13 yrs old. I know some stuff my self because i've read books, watched enough docos about martial arts, admittedly probably not as much as yourself. My big brother learns Praying Mantis, has done for years, and I've seen him go at it, I reckon he'd go pretty good against a boxer. Thats probably where I was coming from.. Could you tell me what you meant by: Les Paul and strat player are? Violins??? TheMantis

Reading about and watching documentaries of martial arts does nothing really. Most of what you see will be highly biased.

To truly have a good, unbiased understanding of different MAs you'll need to train in one of them, and actually fight an opposing MA.

Just watching your brother do Praying Mantis is nothing. You need to watch him in action. I'm sure he looks very cool attacking inanimate objects with no sentience. That doesn't mean he'll do well against a boxer who
1. keeps his chin tucked
2. moves around, on the balls of his feet
3. slips through any move slower than a fast jab.

He might do well against a complete newbie at boxing. Against a ranked amateur or professional, he'll get creamed. The very fact that I've never even heard of any tournaments featuring Praying Mantis style is testament to the fact that not enough people use it, so there aren't enough people to spar with. MAs involve more training than technique.

Boxers don't have too many techniques compared to other MAs, so what they do have, they train rigorously in. They're fast, and they have (without a doubt) the strongest, most effective punches of all the MAs.

If you think your older brother would do well against an amateur boxer with a decent record, or even a pro, you're sadly mistaken and are living in a world of illusions most likely fashioned by your brother. I advice you to be skeptical of his claims. Try some martial arts yourself. See which ones actually help you in a sparring match, or even a bout. Don't just take the word of your friends. In the end, your own opinion is the one you can trust.

[Bruised&Bashed]

Boxing vs Kung fu

Well, I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, but having read through the entire thread and having been a boxer and a WC/WT guy (and currently having a crack at JKD, I couldn't resist. I'm not sure of how many guys out there have trained both for as long as I have and I would be interested to hear reactions from those, rather than the pricks making comments because they have an ego to massage and are devoid of all ability to have a reasoned debate...however, for what it's worth, here's my two penneth worth from experience. Some of you will agree, some of you won't.

I'm 28 and have spent 16 years doing various arts/styles. Starting with judo like most kids at school in England, I moved that into the more 'useful' ju jitsu and have trained in boxing, jkd and wingchun, which are my three favourite styles...because simply put, they are all effective in their place.

There is a lot of talk here about WC/WT guys hitting the air, doing drills (patta patta was one I think, and namby pamby punches) and that they don't really spar and don't have the conditioning or power of boxers etc. Unfortunately, many people's experience of WC/WT is exactly this, but if you look further you would be surprised. The problem with WC/WT these days is that there are too many branches and schools, now that it is a growing martial art, and with Bruce Lee's name attached to it it is a money spinner. Inevitably you get some shit schools..otherwise known as McDojos, where guys just want to earn some cash. You need to shop around for a good school but even some of these that proudly say they are associated to Samuel Kwok for instance, or perhaps used to walk the dog for Yip Man or some other great strapline are just not worth the effort. They say it purely to win members over other schools, it's advertising and often has no real meaning to the quality of the school.

I've trained WC and WT (and there are subtle differences) for ten years and I have trained in some bloody good schools..I have also trained in some shit ones. The good ones, in my book are the ones who apply WC/WT to the modern world and actually for what it was intended. To win fights. Let's not forget that wing chun is the favoured fighting art of Chinese gangsters over all other styles because of it's simple effectiveness and efficiency. That's why it's called the gangster fist in Hong Kong, because it settles fights. That's not at all to say that boxing can't do that either because it is phenomenally good at settling a fight very quickly and efficiently.

Real WC/WT schools turn people into fighters and that often means respecting the inadequacies in the system as well as developing the parts of it which make it such a good art. By inadequacies, I don't mean that what it does teach is in any way ineffective, otherwise I would have stopped years ago, only that it is not good if a fight goes to ground for instance and also, like many styles, it finds it hard to defend against the boxer's hook properly. And here again I am talking from experience of fights, not from what you learn in the training hall. So we learn to adapt to these inadequacies, by training with and running seminars with jiu jitsu guys and by learning to incorporate ducking and weaving, which boxers are so good at, to avoid a hook. Some may say avoidance is not a great technique, but it has served me better in a fight than any other technique WC/WT has taught me against a good boxer's hook. The old adage that you can see a hook coming by looking at the shoulder is true - but at the speed it comes in a real fight, seeing it and blocking it are two different things. Seeing it and moving out the bloody way is easier.. Learning to hook and jab yourself will also open up your range of weapons and make you a more rounded fighter. For a boxer to learn how to kick and how to punch from the centre would also increase their weaponry.

Forget combinations and complex moves..in a real fight the person that lands the first good strike usually wins. This is why boxers generally are considered good fighters and win more of these fights. They learn a basic but effective few strikes and these are trained to hit things from day one and they learn to use them hard (on real people) and they learn to use them fast (on real people)...and they train them through sparring. (oh and as for the guy that said wing chun guys wear helmets when they spar, so they must be namby pamby, well I trained boxing for five years and every gym I went to had guys wearing headguards - the reason we wear them is because they stop us getting injured as we hit without gloves, unlike boxers!) They also train stamina to the nth degree and learn how to be hit as well as hit. This forms the core of their training day in day out and so the result is a quick, fast powerful fighter who may only use a few moves, but employs them with dangerous power, speed and precision and is going to take a couple of hits himself before he hits the deck like a sack of shit.

Too many wing chun schools lack this core training. They teach the sensitivity drills of chi sao and lok sau which form a fundamental part of wing chun and which definitely tip the balance in your favour, but only if your basic skills - movement, power, speed and your fighting temperament - are honed also. Too many schools train the traditional techniques and drills and leave the students to build up their own power and speed and stamina and don't mentally 'train' them to be fighters. How many wing chun guys go months before hitting something other than the air!! They show them combinations, but not how to incorporate these techniques into real fights. Because in essence, you rarely can. Also, these old trainings do not teach you the fundamental fact that you may and probably will be hit. All arts and styles teach blocks - you don't want to be hit after all, but face facts. Boxers, for the main, train to defend against boxers. They are masters at it. But you watch any pro boxing match and you will lose count of the number of times a good boxer gets through and lands a punch. Because the real world is different to the training hall. The only way to learn to take a hit is to spar - so that's what we do. That's what any good school does. And we train against other styles - namely boxing because we know it is a good style.

So we train stamina, by fighting and by anaerobic training, we condition our bodies to get hit, we develop our speed and our power by hitting each other or hitting wallbags and we fight till one person tires or dies (slight exaggeration that last bit, but you get the idea!) and once you start sparring for real, you start thinking like a fighter. Because only then, do you realise that all these combinations you learn are not all that practical unless you are fighting a drunken meathead in a bar. In reality, when a good boxer is coming at you with one jab after another, you are probably going to have to block more than you thought and take your shot when you can. The same for a boxer if a WC/WT guy opens up a barrage of centre line punches. They will have to be blocked or it's curtains. And it is going to be simple and efficient techniques that win the day - like a good hook, or a properly executed centre line punch to the jaw. Or three if you're quick enough. (And again, for all those who think there is no power in a properly trained centre line punch, I would suggest you go to your nearest WCKFAUK, or Kamon club and ask the instructor to clout you in the jaw). And that is when wingchun comes into its own. All that chi sao and lok sao sensitivity drilling means you have a great feel for when you have an opening and what is more you can make them. That is the edge it gives you. And of course you have kicks, which boxers cannot defend. So a better than average wingchun guy (one that can fight) should beat a better than average boxer. There's just more better than average boxers around. Hence you have more boxers that know how to win fights. That said, there are plenty of good boxers out there that can tear a good wingchun guy apart...it's all swings and roundabouts.

But what I've said about being a fighter is not just about wing chun or boxing. The same can be said of most martial arts. Full contact karate is very different to traditional karate and geared towards winning fights quickly, effectively and with the least amount of effort. The same can be said of boxing, wing chun, jkd and all arts when practised for the purpose of real fighting.

In the end it comes down to the way it is taught, to what end (to win fights or to learn a style), the individual's mindset and the amount of effort you put in to get there. And again, because it takes a lot longer to become an effective WC/WT fighter than an effective boxer you meet more good boxers. Period.

And in this last sentence, there are two of the fundamental reasons why boxers on the whole appear to be better fighters. Time trained to level reached ratio which I have mentioned, but also the mindset of the fighter.

In my experience, boxers are more natural fighters and that counts for an awful lot. Boxers are sluggers and WC/WT guys are thinkers. WC/WT is a good art for fighting, but often the practitioners who start wing chun do so because it looks great, but complicated. A challenge for their mental faculties. So they spend too much time thinking about the subtle nuances of each and every WC/WT move, when they should be devoting that thought to learning to fight effectively. Boxers in the main, just want to start thumping and hence they tend to be more aggressive. And I am generalising here, to all you free thinking boxers out there! Aggression is a key thing in determining a fighter. Put Tyson in his prime up against Bruce Lee and I strongly suspect Tyson would have slaughtered him through his aggression alone.

When it comes to those arts which work in a fight, it really has nothing to do with one art being bigger or better than the other or worse...it's what you do with it. Or is that penises?

In essence, what I am saying is that if you look at the core effective fighting arts such as boxing and wing chun, kali, escrima, hapkido, silat, ju jitsu etc you will see benefits in all and inadequacies in all and between them all you will become an effective fighter, if you use what works for you.

But hey, we were at this point years ago and it became known as JKD. So whay all the arguing. Let's face facts..there is no true style better than all the others. You can only do what works for you. Christ..I saw a guy pick up a dude the other day and piledrive him..never done a days wrestling in his life and saw it on WWE and thought he'd give it a go.

Now....the politics of JKD and the different qualities of those schools!..there's a discussion...but I digress..

If any of you are still awake, well done..you can have a medal.

A joke: What is Bruce Lee's favourite drink?
Answers next week

[TheMantis]

Well I thank u for that advice. I don't normally take in what my friends say and i guess I'd have to know a martial art to understand martial arts. and I realize that boxers would be twice as effective with their hands. u are right what u said BOXERS DO KICK ARSE. THE Mantis

[Garland]

You want to know the truth. Some people have it in them already. Others have to culture it and hone it, but what will conquer an opponent is will power, spirit, and an unyeilding sense of fortitude and perserverance, and the ability to adapt and move.

If you don't hit very hard, you learn to hit more often and crowd an opponent so they are forced to react a certain way. If you hit HARD but aren't very fast, you have to create an opening in your opponent by either feinting or throwing them off guard.

All techniques in every art were developed by the people who were able to utilize those skills along with their own personal attributes and do very well with them. Hence, every technique has a time and place, but only if the person using it know it's use and is efficient and steadfast in it's use.



I'm an amatuer muay thai boxer (I've been training for about 6 years), but I also train FMA (Inosanto blend, Dikiti tirsia, and some Sayoc) and JKD. When I was a little kid I took tae kwon do.

I've used a Tae Kwon Do roundkick as a little kid (12 years old) to literally drop a server at my parent's restraunt who would tease me by pouring ice water down my back. The story was that he pissed blood for the next two days after I landed a snap kick to his kidneys.

In a more recent fight, I agreed to do a little demonstration in good fun for some of my friends by going bare knuckles punching only against two opponents about my size at once.
During the fight I went from boxing techniques, covering, bobbing and weaving, and landing boxing style punches, to thai boxing style punches, where I would round down my cross, or more look mae techniques where I would leap and land a cross into one of their grills when the other guy got too close. This technique dropped one of them...so I now know that it works well for me in this type of scenario.
I also would change my stance up and gunting out of a kali stance as well as throw back fists and raking JKD style lop sao's all of which worked for me. perhaps the most interesting thing I noticed is after one lop sao with the right, I could keep going this same way, because they can't defend it if they don't know what's up...so just chip away until they drop.

[guy incognito]

Is there kungfu style which allows u to fight boxers like Frank Bruno, Jack Dempsey, Mohammed Ali ?. My friend says that a boxer can beat hell into a kungfu guy. He says this guy who was studying some deadly form of praying mantis got his ass whipped by a boxer.

Does this mean kungfu is a waist of time for self defense ?. If a chinese master from china fights a boxer will he win ?

Fact: No matter what the stlye you will always get people who just plain suck ass! I would suggest that this guy was one of them. People can suck just as much as boxing as any other art.

[guy incognito]

Is there kungfu style which allows u to fight boxers like Frank Bruno, Jack Dempsey, Mohammed Ali ?. My friend says that a boxer can beat hell into a kungfu guy. He says this guy who was studying some deadly form of praying mantis got his ass whipped by a boxer.

Does this mean kungfu is a waist of time for self defense ?. If a chinese master from china fights a boxer will he win ?

Fact: No matter what the stlye you will always get people who just plain suck ass! I would suggest that this guy was one of them. People can suck just as much at boxing as any other art. My Kung Fu instructor says if you fight a boxer don't fuk up or he will demolish you'