Chinese MAs in Real Life?

[veilmk5]

polecat, can u list some things u learned from xing yi or ba gua that were useful in ur fights?

[47MartialMan]

Interesting indeed........

Would you feel more comfortable with the word novice? Apparently semantics is extremely important on this forum. To me, beginner and novice would be interchangeable. I know the basics (and the history) of my style and I can handle myself well, but I would never presume to be anything other than a beginner/novice at my current level. Someone that's been married for thirty years would look at my paltry two and 1/2 and say I was just starting or maybe even a beginner. Hope this clarifies
Yes, it does clarify. Just say that you have "x" experience and not a beginner for some time or just starting, etc...


I was a doorman starting about the age of 20 and did it part time until age 26 or so. Mostly at a private after hour club and at special events. Started doing it again about six years ago for special events and for friends that own local clubs, probably only 8-10 times a year. Although the Irish pub I used to work at is now under new management, so I probably won't have that gig anymore. I'm forty one now and I'd have to say I'm much better at talking people out of being stupid than I was as a youth.
Most clubs that I had managed and had doorman/bouncers, went for my advice and now use/hire uniform LEO. These LEOs have their squad cars not too far away which serves as a temp lock down of perps until other LEOs arrive. Rarely are incidents wih a visual LEO on detail.


Yes, that's the one. Although I study a style called Ma Lineage Xing Yi Liu He Quan also referred to as Xin Yi Liu He Quan. Before I go throwing my Shifu's name on the internet I would first like to ask his permission. I don't think he would have a problem, but I'd rather not presume.
It is always a good idea to seel permission before posting someone's name. In fact, I was denied permission by two of my instructors. They want their affiars so private, that they do not even have a website for their martial arts. They do not want the internet to exploit their names or their arts.

[Tameo]

I feel like im in kindergarten when i go to this topic. So much pointless arguing.

[jubaji]

I feel like im in kindergarten when i go to this topic. So much pointless arguing.

................................................................


Na-uh!

[Elfunko]

DEATH
Death has been officially added to the list...

Roflmao!

[Garland]

I think I agree with most of what you are saying but polcat is right in that kickboxing evolved from full contact karate and I can tell you from experience the "boxing" from kick boxers is generally poor. Now of course I mean in relation to boxers, but of course far better than a person not used to fighting or boxing. If I were to choose I would take a competent boxer over a kick boxer any day. Just my opinion from my experience.

I think what polecat was trying to say was that kickboxing wasn't borne from the street (battle field) like say MT, FMA or jujutsu etc. it was created strictly for competition in the ring. So it can't technically be considered a "street style". But as Garland stated any style trained for combat (street) application will be effective Wrestling, Boxing etc.





Polecat: I do not study MT, but from what I understand the term "competition" is probably very much an understatement. There was alot of broken bones and blood coming from these competitions in the early days

Please refrain from giving America credit for the evolution of Kickboxing. Mixing Karate and Boxing is pretty...well, it barely holds a candle to any of the whole arts that preceed it. So-called "American" Kickboxing is bastardized karate. Kyokushin guys deserve more props (to put it LIGHTLY), because they are true fighters. American kickboxing is a contemptable shadow to even Shotokan karate, or the worst boxing camp in America.
It wasn't a new idea. There are historical references to forms of "kickboxing"
of one sort or another going wayyyyy back into antiquity.
Korea has arts, China has arts, India has arts, Southeast Asia (obviously) has arts, and...even fucking GREECE and FRANCE have what amount to has kickboxing arts.
Every culture has some form of stand-up fighting art that fits to one degree or another the generic and umbrella term of "kickboxing".

[IPON]

Please refrain from giving America credit for the evolution of Kickboxing.

Garland I was referring to the quote below from Polecat. What he stated was correct and within context I was only refering to kickboxing that statrted in the US I know other countries have (Kick)boxing styles. Also, I have stated may times I am not a fan of (american)kickboxing due to the sub par boxing kills

Kickboxing in the US was a direct result of full contact karate matches starting in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

[polecat63]

polecat, can u list some things u learned from xing yi or ba gua that were useful in ur fights?

I don't study ba gua. The thing that helped the most from Xing Yi were the entering strategies and the way it attacks the centerline. Also, I've done tons of sensetivity type training. Lots of push hands and similar exercises that help with blocking and redirecting attack. Hopefully I'll never have to use it again outside of sparring.

Most clubs that I had managed and had doorman/bouncers, went for my advice and now use/hire uniform LEO. These LEOs have their squad cars not too far away which serves as a temp lock down of perps until other LEOs arrive. Rarely are incidents wih a visual LEO on detail.

Many of the clubs around here have done the same. At least the ones that have had some high profile problems in the past. Clubs that have been on the verge of losing their ABC license managed to save their businesses by hiring uniformed security. My friends are just too cheap!

[HtTKar]

Originally posted by MADDOG
Of all the different MA – Korean – Japanese – American, the CMA have, as a whole, stayed true to the tenets of what a MA are supposed to be.

Forget the UFC, point sparring, Olympic sparring or any rule base MA. Just view it on effectiveness on removing the obstacle quickly and effectively with a minimal amount of energy spent with maximum results achieve in a variety of scenarios. This is how to judge a martial art – not based on a tournament.

Forgive my naivity. If what you say is true then why is it that they are not teaching our armed forces Chinese Martial Arts. Is there nothing more militant or martial than the military? I know many military people that have taken Korean, French, Japanese, American, or other martial arts, but have not met or known one to take a Chinese Martial Art. Why is it, if CMA have "stayed true to the tenets of what a MA are supposed to be", that CMA are not taught in real military training?

Also, how has CMA "stayed true", where all other arts have failed? What criteria are you using?

[Dom Shakal]

From what I've read, the US military does not focus on *any* martial art as part of it's basic training because as a modern soldier, you're not supposed to be without your firearm. In other words, if you're in a combat situation and you DON'T have a firearm, something's gone really wrong. Therefore, most of the training is on mastering that firearm, etc.

I'm not certain, but I would guess that more advanced US military training (SEALs, Green Berets, Army Rangers?) might get into more unarmed combat training. Perhaps someone with that type of experience could share what they know ...

[DVSJ]

Forgive my naivity. If what you say is true then why is it that they are not teaching our armed forces Chinese Martial Arts. Is there nothing more militant or martial than the military? I know many military people that have taken Korean, French, Japanese, American, or other martial arts, but have not met or known one to take a Chinese Martial Art. Why is it, if CMA have "stayed true to the tenets of what a MA are supposed to be", that CMA are not taught in real military training?

Also, how has CMA "stayed true", where all other arts have failed? What criteria are you using?

You know many military people who have taken martial arts except CMA..?What do you consider many?Is that enough?Is it enough to make a statistical measure.We have millions of US soldiers serving...MILLIONS!Some prefer to study Korean arts,others may prefer French,Japanese,American,FMA,etc.I'm pretty darn sure some of our soldiers prefer CMA.In the past US soldiers studied CMA (for personal use,at war in camps,etc.).It's not hard to fathom that CMA is taught to some of our military people in these present times...

[DVSJ]

Real CMA are extremely effective.

Today’s perspective of CMA is tournament Wushu – this is a representation of the art not the true effectiveness of CMA.

Of all the different MA – Korean – Japanese – American, the CMA have, as a whole, stayed true to the tenets of what a MA are supposed to be.

Forget the UFC, point sparring, Olympic sparring or any rule base MA. Just view it on effectiveness on removing the obstacle quickly and effectively with a minimal amount of energy spent with maximum results achieve in a variety of scenarios. This is how to judge a martial art – not based on a tournament.

If you wish to compare CMA vs. KMA in a tournament, then so be it. Your sum conclusion will that stylist vs the other stylist in a control situation.

Ed Barton

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "stayed true to the tenets of what a MA are supposed to be."However I do believe that CMA has the least tournaments of all MA which is fine by me...I don't judge an art or martial artist by points...the only point taken is will you survive a violent encounter to share another day with loved ones.

[HtTKar]

You know many military people who have taken martial arts except CMA..?What do you consider many?Is that enough?Is it enough to make a statistical measure.We have millions of US soldiers serving...MILLIONS!Some prefer to study Korean arts,others may prefer French,Japanese,American,FMA,etc.I'm pretty darn sure some of our soldiers prefer CMA.In the past US soldiers studied CMA (for personal use,at war in camps,etc.).It's not hard to fathom that CMA is taught to some of our military people in these present times...

You have a good point.
Going though college and now working in Engineering, almost everyone I know is either ex-military, or currently enlisted in either the guard or the reserves. Over the years, that accounts for literally hundreds of people. Those of us that are not military seem to all have come from military families. I agree that some soldiers may prefer CMA; I just have never met one that was even offered such a chance while enlisted.

In the past US soldiers studied CMA (for personal use,at war in camps,etc.).It's not hard to fathom that CMA is taught to some of our military people in these present times...

I was not aware that US soldiers were offered CMA in the past. Was this in a certain branch? I just have never met anyone from the military that took CMA's. Maybe its just coincidence. I'm not trying to say it doesnt happen, just that I've never heard or seen anyone that has taken CMA in the military.

Anyone on this board ever taken CMA in the military?
What branch, and when?

[DVSJ]

You have a good point.
Going though college and now working in Engineering, almost everyone I know is either ex-military, or currently enlisted in either the guard or the reserves. Over the years, that accounts for literally hundreds of people. Those of us that are not military seem to all have come from military families. I agree that some soldiers may prefer CMA; I just have never met one that was even offered such a chance while enlisted.




I was not aware that US soldiers were offered CMA in the past. Was this in a certain branch? I just have never met anyone from the military that took CMA's. Maybe its just coincidence. I'm not trying to say it doesnt happen, just that I've never heard or seen anyone that has taken CMA in the military.

Anyone on this board ever taken CMA in the military?
What branch, and when?

As a whole or by branch I can't say for sure but individually & in groups I've heard and read such things as soldiers having studied/taught this and/or that by so n so...you know how people like to have little Bio's of their own on websites and share their backgrounds...one that comes to mind is a Praying Mantis instructor who teaches out of Campbell,CA. by the name of Paul Eng.I've had older x military guys (one being my cousin) show me some CMA techniques that they came across when stationed in other countries...my old boss whom is an Army ranger (now on reserved) explained to me how they trained and that their techniques came from different MA,they just grasp what is practical and most effective for a quick, end all nonsense tactic to defeat an enemy...can't remember if he mentioned CMA techmiques but it's a possibility...

[Tameo]

Here is Wing Chun a CMA used in military... got it from some website.

"Cheung was appointed as Chief Instructor to the U.S. Seventh Fleet based in Yukosuka, Japan, during 1978 to 1980. Throughout this time, he was in charge of the intensive mental and physical development program of close quarter hand to hand combat for the marines.
From 1979 Grandmaster Cheung and many of his juniors conducted special programs for special law enforcing officers and special operation groups in the Armed Services in U.S.A. and other countries, teaching unarmed combat, restraining and disarming assailants and a fire arm retention program."