Forms... practical?

[Sagacious Lu]

Dan, I just looked back at the thread where you were asking about CMA's when you met your kung fu teacher and that was in the beginning of Dec. That means that, from your posts, you've been going to one class a week for less than two months now. Simply put I don't think that's nearly enough time to understand the material you've been shown. Now I don't know you or your teacher personally so I don't really know what's going on here, but it took me about four months of consistant daily practice to get out of the beginner level and earn the right to spar in my school. That's because the forms and drills are blue prints, so to speak, and there's no point in trying to build a house if you don't understand the blue print. Now that I've advanced past the beginnner level I think I spend about 5% of my training time on forms. The other 95% is spend on stuff like hitting the heavy bag, sparring and push ups- ie. stuff that almost all MA can agree on. I'm grateful for the forms and drills because the longer I practice (several years now) the more I realize how much they are teaching me even though I don't always understand them at the time. It may very well be that this sort of training is not for you, but I promise you that it does reward those with the patience to see it through. To each his own though, I don't think there is one "right" way to train so you'll have to find what works for you.

[danfaggella]

Agreed, and I hope I can get some stuff from KF without canceling out my other standup skills. Also, is it a cardinal sin if I don't keep doing forms for the rest of my life? I want to learn from TMA, but forms aren't my favorite things and I'd rather drill or go over techniques.

Also, I really am interested in Krav because I think it is realistic. Right now I a sportive grappler with some basic striking skills but I plan to get into real self-defence striking at some point. I think Krav deals with guns, knives, different attackers ect... while also preserving the beautiful randori-type sparring, where they work in thier dirty moves to a lighter degree.

Is it possible to be a serious sportive grappler and still learn striking and ground striking? Do Abu Dhabi guys train in other arts or are they only sport grapplers. I hope to be able to do both, and not let new knowldge interfere with sport grappling, which is the martial base I plan to build off of.

[Sagacious Lu]

Also, is it a cardinal sin if I don't keep doing forms for the rest of my life?

Nah, I don't think they'll kick you out of Valhalla for it

[robertlee]

Forms Kata and such. Was a put together solo training of selfdefence moves. They teach both left and right side defence. Each selfdefence move in a form is a seperate broken down movement. But when combined together as done in form kata and such. The over site that some have is not seeing each as a defence training motion. aginst different types of moves. Then joint locks and take down moves in some forms are well hidden if not understood. Even some of the strikes are masked as to what is done. several katas. Have bunki that go with appliction following the kata. So most part form is for solo training . A chapter in the book of a style or system. Modern training lead to perfomrance for the most part. That can only b4e done threough resistive training. Which is live partners in the spar or fight training. Only there can you learn real application Of what with in a style you can use and perform with. As you see most styles cover many different applications of use. But the average person needs but a few workable tools to get most jobs done. In away a lifetime of learning is used very little. But in real street life A person fights little and when they do They have to use what they are good at. And that is the small amount of tested tools Not the hole book of form or kata training tools.

[danfaggella]

Thanks Rob, I did know that forms into from my teacher, there are some cool hidden grappling techniques and such in forms.

I also agree that only through live sparring can such things be truely learned, to get the feel for combat and to react to actual fighters not just air, to aply techniques and principles to an actual confrontation, expereince is necissary.

I wish more TMA schools understood that.

SAGACIOUS LU-
I can still pull principle and technique and knowledge from TMA without always running forms, right? I mean, I want to understand some TMA things, but I don't want to deticate to thier doctrine or train in they methods which I often find tedious and illogical. I can still learn from TMA and gain ability right?

[Sagacious Lu]

SAGACIOUS LU-
I can still pull principle and technique and knowledge from TMA without always running forms, right? I mean, I want to understand some TMA things, but I don't want to deticate to thier doctrine or train in they methods which I often find tedious and illogical. I can still learn from TMA and gain ability right?

Sure, I was just clowning around a little If you decide you like three techniques that your kung fu teacher showed you and you practice them constantly you'll get good at them even if you never do forms or go back to that teacher/style ever again. If all you care about is learning to fight than go ahead and mix and match from different styles all you want. Personally I'd rather pick one style and get really good at it before I try to branch out into other stuff. That way I'll have a strong foundation into which I can incorporate anything new that I might learn from another system. You seem to be taking the opposite approach by seeking out techniques ala carte. I see pros and cons to either approach.
A point that I would like to make is that in my experience (it's a big world, take this with a grain of salt) no traditional kung fu teacher is going to train you without including forms. If you're going to practice them because you want to learn the techniques associated with them then you have to accept that they have something to offer so that you will be open-minded enough to benefit from them. If you're doing them unwillingly you will resent them and they won't do you any good. Personally after practicing the six tradtional stances I'll never train my legs any other way. I certainly won't be wasting any more time lifting weights.
I'll freely admit that although I love to train hard with a strong emphasis on combat I also love the tradition for its own sake. There is a rich history associated with kung fu that I find fascinating, and the more I learn about it (I'm talking about history and folk-lore; book learning) the more I'm inspired to train harder. If you look at it that way then the forms are priceless artifacts from days gone by and are worth practicing from that stand point alone.

...IMHO

[danfaggella]

Thanks again, Lu. As I always say your the most helpful dude I know on the forum, I really apreciate your help and perspective.

About having a strong base, beleive me, submission grappling is pretty much my life right now. I teach it and spar with it and read about it daily, I live for the takedown, the positioning and the submissioning. When we spar in Kung Fu its intense and people bet beat up pretty good but there is rarely a clear-cut winner. I sparred Sifu once, and I didn't even want to take him down because he is old and I know he will knock be out somehow no matter what position I am in. But my first spar with one of his 2 year students and a few minutes in, of me being further distressed by my inferior reach and streth I asked if I could run a takedown. He said fine. Double leg, side control, mount, armbar, he was tapping within 7 or so seconds of the takedown. This is a great thing about the ground game, MOST PEOPLE DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

But anways back on track, Sub Grappling is my passion, but martial arts is obviously my passion as well, and though I know a good stance and how to throw good boxing strikes and a few kicks, I want to learn some traditional stuff, which jjust happens to be 99% on the feet, which just happens not to contradict what I do best, grapple. So, I can get a taste of TMA principle and skill once a week, and I add this to my relatively strong base of grappling, does that sound kinda logical? I really want to learn from TMA, and I train dilligently in it, but I wont be necissarily doinng this style for the rest of my life, while I am pretty sure my grappling base will be a huge part of my life for the rest of my life.

what you think?

thanks again lu.

[robertlee]

If you look at traditional arts. FIRST fung fu does not mean its a M/A it can be a good carpenter or other things. But in the M/A aspect each art was greared first for training the mind and body useing selfdefence training as a base structure. Then forms came along as a learning process to guide that training. BUT only through liberation does truth show performance. So forms combined with spars hopefully at least light contact spars. does a person there delivery method of what they learn. Otherwise the training is geared more for a cultuer aspect . Its good to know about the art a person chooses to train. Interesting that way. But no art has the full aspect of a complte fighter program. Even though a life time of learning 1 art is taken. Other arts share all the same basic aproaches. Just some seem better suited in there methods. And most arts teach a ground training combined with the standup. BUT which school of thought you train in Only you through good instruction can be the delivery person of your self. As to how well you can do that art its only you in the end. How many instructors are there today and how many students of a art. all are students in the end learning and growing. Forms well trained added to live training well trained then you can use a certion amount of what you do. with both forms by there self will only preserve movement. but not let it live.

[gabbah]

I still don't get why you want the "traditional" part. Why not just do stand up fighting; muay thai, kickboxing, boxing, or something like that, WITHOUT the timewasting traditional part?
I mean, you said you want to learn striking?

[danfaggella]

I want to learn stand up and I want to see the other side of martial arts. PS, I'm not wasting THAT much time, its only once a week that I do kung fu the rest of the time I am hitting the speed bag, hitting the heavy bag (mostly just basic boxing strikes) and a WHOLE LOT OF GRAPPLING. I don't want to call it BJJ because I think BJJ technically has a Gi, and I think that much of what I use was never taught to me in BJJ books but also from Sambo/Judo/ect... so I just call it sportive grappling. This is my base, this is easy to train, I train in grappling 100% for a long time and I don't need any equipment, and I won't wake up with injuries like I would if I sparred kickboxing. I like that I can train full-resistance everyday in Grappling, I am always developing and these are the skills I rely on.

However, I want to see what traditional martial arts are like, there are dirty techniques (not usable in the ring), different views on footwork, breathing, and plenty of interesting TCMA hand forms.

I like it, I lke the fact that we are outside no matter what the weather, I like that we spar out on the cold ground, I like that the teacher roughs us up a little when demonstrating. It may not work as well in the ring as MT, but right now I'm testing the traditional spectrum of martial arts while building off my strong grappling base, I dont think its such a bad idea.

[danfaggella]

I want to learn stand up and I want to see the other side of martial arts. PS, I'm not wasting THAT much time, its only once a week that I do kung fu the rest of the time I am hitting the speed bag, hitting the heavy bag (mostly just basic boxing strikes) and a WHOLE LOT OF GRAPPLING. I don't want to call it BJJ because I think BJJ technically has a Gi, and I think that much of what I use was never taught to me in BJJ books but also from Sambo/Judo/ect... so I just call it sportive grappling. This is my base, this is easy to train, I train in grappling 100% for a long time and I don't need any equipment, and I won't wake up with injuries like I would if I sparred kickboxing. I like that I can train full-resistance everyday in Grappling, I am always developing and these are the skills I rely on.

However, I want to see what traditional martial arts are like, there are dirty techniques (not usable in the ring), different views on footwork, breathing, and plenty of interesting TCMA hand forms.

I like it, I lke the fact that we are outside no matter what the weather, I like that we spar out on the cold ground, I like that the teacher roughs us up a little when demonstrating. It may not work as well in the ring as MT, but right now I'm testing the traditional spectrum of martial arts while building off my strong grappling base, I dont think its such a bad idea.

[gabbah]

Then that is what you want, go for it.
And yeah grappling is awesome because you can train it in such a live manner almost without any risk of getting hurt.

[Sagacious Lu]

Thanks again, Lu. As I always say your the most helpful dude I know on the forum, I really apreciate your help and perspective.

Cheers, it's been good talking to you

But anways back on track, Sub Grappling is my passion, but martial arts is obviously my passion as well, and though I know a good stance and how to throw good boxing strikes and a few kicks, I want to learn some traditional stuff, which jjust happens to be 99% on the feet, which just happens not to contradict what I do best, grapple. So, I can get a taste of TMA principle and skill once a week, and I add this to my relatively strong base of grappling, does that sound kinda logical? I really want to learn from TMA, and I train dilligently in it, but I wont be necissarily doinng this style for the rest of my life, while I am pretty sure my grappling base will be a huge part of my life for the rest of my life.

what you think?

thanks again lu.

That sounds like it makes good sense to me. I chose a stand-up style because after six years of wrestling in school I was tired of grappling. That said I'd like to revisit ground fighting by cross training because I agree that a balanced fighter needs to understand both.

I still don't get why you want the "traditional" part. Why not just do stand up fighting; muay thai, kickboxing, boxing, or something like that, WITHOUT the timewasting traditional part?
I mean, you said you want to learn striking?

Because in kung fu we do a lot more than punch and kick. Chin na is awesome, and eye gouges can be devastating. There are a lot of things that the sportive styles you just named leave out. Besides, I've never met anyone that could actually do our Tiger form that thought it was a waste of time. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there aren't good reasons for it.

[kiddbjj]

dude i can sympathise with your problem 100%.

i train BJJ and have done for the past 2 years after 5 years of kung fu. BJJ is great as a ground fighting system BUT I know exactly what you mean by the combat sports "missing" some of the "feel" of the TMA's. By "feel" i guess i mean the spirit, philosophy & dare I say "power for personal change" of the TMA's.

i think the problem is that they basically only teach in the same way you would learn any other sport, basketball, soccer etc. "here are the techniques, drill them, compete, fine tune, fitness, etc". they dont seem to address the fundamental aspects of building character, instilling discipline, encouraging a better understanding of life or generally helping you become a better or well-rounded person other than "this is how you fight on the ground, or clinch etc.

this is something i really miss not doing kung fu anymore. sometimes we would spend hours after class just discussing life and philosophy with our instructor. we would learn how to apply the discipline and persistence we displayed in class during difficult training sessions into our work/school life for example. let me tell you if you can hold a low horse stance for a long time whilst your legs are shaking and you are practically in tears from the pain but still dont quit this makes you a whole new person. it might sound pointless and impractical for fighting but i know i can push my limits from experiences like this. also we were taught to always keep a poker face when we were in pain. it still shits me now when im at BJJ to see guys flop on the floor after an exhausting wrestle instead of keeping their composure. why show weakness? if i had of done this at kung fu (even wiping away sweat from my face was frowned upon during stance training) I would have been reprimanded.

even though there are top guys in MMA with great character, like randy couture, there are heaps of wankers like Tito. these guys with poor attitudes can fight but what will they do when they're too old for the UFC/pride. there attitudes will probably keep them in a perpetual cycle of poor decisions and a crappy life. compare this with the attitudes instilled by TMA's and i think the picture is different. not as good fighters(from a technical perspective) but great spirit and character that will stay with them a lifetime.

this is obviously a generalisation, there are some great and motivational boxing, BJJ etc teachers out there that really help their students get ready for life in and out of competition and there are still dicks in the TMA but overall I would think its a fairly reasonable picture.

sorry about the rant but i'm sort of turning these things over in my own mind at the moment. even though i enjoy BJJ i'm always feeling that something is missing because of my kung fu background. but i just couldn't learn another bloody form. i'd learnt almost 20 in the time i was there. crazy!.

great thread guys

[gabbah]

Some very good points made. I think many youngsters benefit from that character building side you talk about in TMA.
We have none of that in kickboxing, it's just like you say, drills and conditioning.
Good points.