'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[tjwingchun]

It's an intense subject.
One easily dismissed by those who would argue for 'nurture' over 'nature'
Too often, skills and ability are perceived to be things that you can buy or consume, regardless of natural ability or availability.
Hence, you have judgements on 'time frame'.
e.g. I paid for a year, and I didn't get my moneys worth.

I was having this discussion just the other week, it is one of those repetitive arguments, well repetitive for me as the subject keeps coming up with different students, my life at times seems like a scene from "Groundhog Day", lol.

Apart from the 30+ years training in Wing Chun there are three other aspects to my physical and psychological development that are relevant in my mind.

RUGBY, TABLE TENNIS and DISCO DANCING!!!!

I suppose I had better illiuminate as quickly as possible before your minds are distracted with hideous visions of me wielding a bat on a pitch to the tune of "Everybody was Kung Fu fighting", lol.

From playing rugby I learned quite a few things, contact collisions, avoidance, angled attacks and having to stop a meat head twice your size trying to run through you when you cannot run away!

Table tennis is a good hand/eye co-ordination exercise understanding precise directional energies, and most important, AT SPEED.

Disco dancing at Uni when I was younger and dafter (others would say I have not changed at all, just older lol.) gave me a lot of awareness training of my legs, I would pratice leg techniques, kicks, spins, turns etc, while leaping around making a prat of myself!

I also play cricket, snooker/pool and darts.

Back to my point though, looking at my personal history I can identify positive influences that have helped my Wing Chun development, rugby, the rough and tumble of real contact and collisions, table tennis developed/honed hand speed and co-ordination, dancing I think had a profound effect on my understanding of legs and movement.

Now how do I bring that all together to create a training program for my students, do I organise rugby/table tennis competitions then go out nightclubbing after and maybe have a few drunken fights to round the training off to test the practical skills that have been learned.

Or do I recognise what are my personal skills and identify what are relevant to my Wing Chun and try to devise schemes of practice that entail similar developmental properties?

Maybe if I was teaching professional fighters, who were training with me 7 days a week, it might be of value to do such a thing, I remember around 20 years ago a TV show that had an American football team during their off season training and they had Dan Inosanto showing them JKD, not for any other reason but for keeping their minds focussed on learning something new, in the past they had done ballroom dancing, anything NOT football related, so that they could relax and not get bogged down with continual football theory and practice, to keep them fresh for the start of the next season.

Usually the average MA practitioner will train 1-2 times a week, for 1-2 hours at a time, as an instructor I must be aware of the time limitations for development that this sets and organise the training to cover not just the Wing Chun skills that I had been taught by Sifu, but also to include the extra-curricular awareness that I deem important, however to include them within the Wing Chun forms and syllabus rather than additional outside practice.

Easy job this teaching thing, tee hee.

Live in the details.

It's how I live my life

Couple of fun things to experiment with;
Take meter stick.
Suspend it with the end just between a students thumb and index finger.
Maintaining eye contact, release the stick.
You could measure their response time imperial or metric.

Now blindfold the student, but allow them contact with the stick with either thumb or index finger.
Compare results.

I know you don't need to do this, as you know which will be more significant.

It's like the old trick using a new banknote, saying that the volunteer can have the note if they can catch it.

What it demonstrates is basic reaction time, and the difference between fast nerves and slow ones.

Reflex speed as opposed to thnking speed.

The guideline that I refer to is what I term "the 1/10 of a second rule", I picked this up from Olympic/International Athletics!

1/10 of a second is the time that the IAA say that it takes for a sprinter to react to a starting pistol, anything less than that and it is deemed a false start, so from the gun going off to the pressure sensors in the blocks detecting a reaction, anything less than 1/10 of a second is "jumping the gun".

What that tells me is that if I can do a technique within a 1/10 sec. there is nothing anybody can do about it in response.

This subject really is a topic for a whole new thread as it covers real fighting, chi sau training and application and the big question about when a fight starts and when you should begin hitting!

It's like what you mentioned with Blind fold Chi Sau (should it be any other way?)
When the creative side of the brain gets involved, it can go horribly wrong.
To me, the object is senitivity, and the patterns, rhythmn, pop combinations are often detrimental to that.

All that, just to suggest playing hands.

Rhythm methods do not work, they make people into parents,

[Tom Yum]

ok

I believe the art could be effective; some of the master instructors can hit extremely quick. Seems like the strikes are aimed at soft targets. Add to that some good elbow and knee strikes. All it takes is one, maybe two solid strikes and the guy that was standing in front of you is staggering onto the ground.

WC gets a bad rap for the same reason karate point sparring does; the training methods.

Wingchun could be adapted to sports compeition. Striking would have to be done with fists - low kicks, trapping and kneeing would be perfectly legit.

Why doesn't someone take it to a competitive level? Its the artist not the art that makes most fighters - allbeit simpler arts can be used more readily in a short-training time.

Sure the style may not be designed for competition, but if it can stand up against an olympic TKD fighter, decent amateur muay thai fighter or even a giant brawler it would be taken more seriously.

[Troll Virus]

The subconscious/conscious debate gets confusing as you are right in thinking that you make conscious decisions to the events that you meet on the road and make conscious decisions to change in relation to the circumstances but the co-ordination of actions is subconscious, you don't think right foot off accelerator, left foot on clutch, left hand on gear stick, etc etc, the process of changing once the conscious decision to change has been made becomes subconscious.

It's an intense subject.
One easily dismissed by those who would argue for 'nurture' over 'nature'
Too often, skills and ability are perceived to be things that you can buy or consume, regardless of natural ability or availability.
Hence, you have judgements on 'time frame'.
e.g. I paid for a year, and I didn't get my moneys worth.

Its splitting hairs but I am a pedantic bastard and deal with split second decision making and the ability to apply relevant 'learned responses' without thinking that gives your conscious mind the time to come up with a more precise solution to the specific situation you find yourself in.

Live in the details.

Couple of fun things to experiment with;
Take meter stick.
Suspend it with the end just between a students thumb and index finger.
Maintaining eye contact, release the stick.
You could measure their response time imperial or metric.

Now blindfold the student, but allow them contact with the stick with either thumb or index finger.
Compare results.

I know you don't need to do this, as you know which will be more significant.

It's like what you mentioned with Blind fold Chi Sau (should it be any other way?)
When the creative side of the brain gets involved, it can go horribly wrong.
To me, the object is senitivity, and the patterns, rhythmn, pop combinations are often detrimental to that.

All that, just to suggest playing hands.

[tjwingchun]

what's that thread all about, mindless drivel

[Thai Bri]

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=21818

Haw haw haw!!!!

[tjwingchun]

Always best to admit when you don't know something.
Even better to promise that you'll find out.

Let me put it to you another way.
Lets say I drive 150 miles and remember nothing of the journey.
Was every mirror check, signal, change of speed, change of gear, change of lane etc sub-conscious?

When I first started teaching professionally I did not know the full system but I was honest with my students and they knew that I was doing the 500 mile round trip to Blackpool every weekend to train with Sifu and therefore whatever I learned they would eventually get as well.

I don't know everything about Wing Chun I think I have hinted about the fact that it is a subject too large to be an 'expert' in it all, and as in science there are always 'specialists', I don't speak Chinese, I don't know that much about the history, just the usual Ng Mui/Yim Wing Chun tale.

What I have concentrated on over the years is the body mechanics of application, how they can be identified in the forms, isolated and investigated in chi sau and then via entry techniques how they can be used practically in real fight situations.

The subconscious/conscious debate gets confusing as you are right in thinking that you make conscious decisions to the events that you meet on the road and make conscious decisions to change in relation to the circumstances but the co-ordination of actions is subconscious, you don't think right foot off accelerator, left foot on clutch, left hand on gear stick, etc etc, the process of changing once the conscious decision to change has been made becomes subconscious.

Its splitting hairs but I am a pedantic bastard and deal with split second decision making and the ability to apply relevant 'learned responses' without thinking that gives your conscious mind the time to come up with a more precise solution to the specific situation you find yourself in.

[Troll Virus]

Anyway I digress,as I am wont to do, an Asian lad walked in through the door, (He should have tried opening it first, ) and inquired for private lessons as he wanted to learn quickly and told me of his reasoning.

Some years previous his brother had been beaten up by a couple of local racist types, and he promised to his brother that he would take revenge on them before he got married, the wedding was just months away so he wanted to learn quickly so that he could fulfill his word! And he was willing to pay whatever to achieve that goal.

I advised him three ways, buy a baseball bat and wait around a corner for those responsible and administer his punishment, or save the money he was prepared to give me for private lessons and pay to get the job done professionally, then finally the other option was to grow up and get over it!

Don't know how it ended as I never saw him again.

This is the thing though, people turn to styles/systems etc looking for rapid results.
Bite sized peices of martial property, they can buy and add to rest of the clutter on their shelves.

My whole Wing Chun career has been based on honestly and being as truthful as possible, ask as question and I will give you the best answer I can. It is how I live my life also, I have nothing to hide and if I am going to teach, how can I be anything else?

Always best to admit when you don't know something.
Even better to promise that you'll find out.

Are you telling me your clutch and gear changing is always conscious rather than subconscious?

Let me put it to you another way.
Lets say I drive 150 miles and remember nothing of the journey.
Was every mirror check, signal, change of speed, change of gear, change of lane etc sub-conscious?

[tjwingchun]

That's cool on a few levels.
Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but you personally distinguish between those who are looking for what you offer, and those who won't get it.
That's beautifully honest.

Many years ago ( I keep using that phrase as I am always precise but at my age and with my attention span it is difficult to be exact about an event that happened over 15 years ago! Does 15+= many? there lies another question, lol).

Anyway I digress,as I am wont to do, an Asian lad walked in through the door, (He should have tried opening it first, ) and inquired for private lessons as he wanted to learn quickly and told me of his reasoning.

Some years previous his brother had been beaten up by a couple of local racist types, and he promised to his brother that he would take revenge on them before he got married, the wedding was just months away so he wanted to learn quickly so that he could fulfill his word! And he was willing to pay whatever to achieve that goal.

I advised him three ways, buy a baseball bat and wait around a corner for those responsible and administer his punishment, or save the money he was prepared to give me for private lessons and pay to get the job done professionally, then finally the other option was to grow up and get over it!

Don't know how it ended as I never saw him again.

My whole Wing Chun career has been based on honestly and being as truthful as possible, ask as question and I will give you the best answer I can. It is how I live my life also, I have nothing to hide and if I am going to teach, how can I be anything else?

Again, you seem to break from the norm, as WC is deemed to be heavily stylised and pattern/programming based.

I teach the form that way but application has to be reality led, understanding how you apply what you have learned from the forms, via chi sau and entry techniques creates the depth of knowledge which allows you to respond to a variety of situations rather than class set-ups.

Here, we part ways somewhat perhaps (or perhaps not)?
To me, even while training specifics, it's important that an individual is still being creative, rather than simply allowing themselves to be programmed.
Phrases like 'muscle memory' do my box in.


I used to drive up to 500 miles a day, often not realising all the actions I took decisions on because they were immemorable, rather than autonomous or sub-conscious.

Are you telling me your clutch and gear changing is always conscious rather than subconscious?

Relevant to the topic, I respect the honesty there.
I've never seen it that way myself, but obviously, others do.
For me, you are only as good as you are 'that day' and arts, seminars attended, time, belts, certificates & experience etc count for zip.

As with any aspect in life, I will be corrected if I am wrong but was it not 'Fun Boy Three' who said "It ain't what you say, it's the way that you do it" lol.

Prior to my next assault....

I'd just like to say that it's been a pleasure so far.

I would say the pleasure is all mine but Thai Bri might get jealous

[tjwingchun]

Hmmm, seems a timeout is in order.

Nothing irritates me more than seeing complaints about posts the day I get back from a trip.

Complaint?

Thai Bri is just crap at typing!

To Troll Virus it was meant to be

"Your arse & licking knob"

Just a friendly external NHB practice they have going

[eXcessiveForce]

Hmmm, seems a timeout is in order.

Nothing irritates me more than seeing complaints about posts the day I get back from a trip.

[Thai Bri]

You are an eedjut.

[Troll Virus]

I always send quick fixers to boxing if they don't mind the brain damage it will get them basic self protection skills a bit faster and they will psychologically 'feel' that they are learning to fight as their face and nose change shape

That's cool on a few levels.
Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but you personally distinguish between those who are looking for what you offer, and those who won't get it.
That's beautifully honest.

Repetitive non-rhythic training creates the sub-conscious learned responses to be available, simple actions to simple triggers, which is why I don't practice self defence techniques as such, years ago I had a student who complained that I never showed him self defence moves like he'd seen in all the magazines that other styles do!

Again, you seem to break from the norm, as WC is deemed to be heavily stylised and pattern/programming based.

The point is that if your training is for specific attacks then your brain will wait for those specific triggers, it all depends on how you are prepared.

Here, we part ways somewhat perhaps (or perhaps not)?
To me, even while training specifics, it's important that an individual is still being creative, rather than simply allowing themselves to be programmed.
Phrases like 'muscle memory' do my box in.

All of my students that have told me of their encounters on the street said how they just responded before they realised it,

I used to drive up to 500 miles a day, often not realising all the actions I took decisions on because they were immemorable, rather than autonomous or sub-conscious.

Wing Chun can not be chopped into neatly chronologically segmented bits,

Relevant to the topic, I respect the honesty there.
I've never seen it that way myself, but obviously, others do.
For me, you are only as good as you are 'that day' and arts, seminars attended, time, belts, certificates & experience etc count for zip.

No apologies necessary I love questions so bring'em all on lol.

Prior to my next assault....

I'd just like to say that it's been a pleasure so far.

[Troll Virus]

Can the traditional wingchun community produce a successfull full-contact fighter using wingchun alone?

Is that really relevant?
Not asking that to offend, but is that what you, personally, see as being the true measure of WC's efficacy?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would definitely catch the attention of the martial arts world.

Wouldn't they all want to say 'but he cross-trained in 'x' anyway?

[tjwingchun]

How we dance on the edge of reason.

It's only the medication that keeps me from falling

[Thai Bri]

I think it potentially could, but that's not really it's goal.
Is that a goal that would best serve the system, or those intent on such proofs though?

How we dance on the edge of reason.