'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[Tom Yum]

Your arse!

No, yours.

[Sagacious Lu]

There's a world of difference between realising you can hit hard, to actually being able to do it when nature calls.

If you're having a problem performing when nature calls than what you need is a good laxative, not kung fu lessons

[Troll Virus]

Of course not; it takes time to learn but not years.

Your arse!

[Tom Yum]

Showing someone how to knock teeth out under pressure isn't a 'five minute job'. If you think it is, get your teeth insured now.

Of course not; it takes time to learn but not years.

[Tom Yum]

LOL.
I'd take that challenge myself.Wouldn't even have to train for it.Or wait, hang on a minute, I wouldn't have to waggle my legs in the air unneccessarily would I?

I thought we agreed this is not a dating site...jk.

Seriously, where are the full-contact wingchun fighters?

[Troll Virus]

I agree.

It doesn't take years to learn to hit hard.

There's hard and there's hard!.
Anyone can go into a gym and have some eedjit who know fook all about fighting show them how to make a bag swing.

Showing someone how to knock teeth out under pressure isn't a 'five minute job'.

If you think it is, get your teeth insured now.

[Troll Virus]

Which is absurd. I can't think of much that's simpler or more basic than throwing a good hard punch. Once I was shown how to throw a punch it took me about 10 minutes of hitting a bag to realize that I could hit harder by using my legs and hips. After a couple of weeks the motion felt comfortable and natural to me, and it was obvious from the way the bag moved when I hit it that I was hitting A LOT harder than I used to.

There's a world of difference between realising you can hit hard, to actually being able to do it when nature calls.

[Troll Virus]

I Sure the style may not be designed for competition, but if it can stand up against an olympic TKD fighter

LOL.
I'd take that challenge myself.
Wouldn't even have to train for it.

Or wait, hang on a minute, I wouldn't have to waggle my legs in the air unneccessarily would I?
Is it mandatory to hold my hands below waist height?

[Troll Virus]

From playing rugby I learned quite a few things, contact collisions, avoidance, angled attacks and having to stop a meat head twice your size trying to run through you when you cannot run away!

Former Scrum Half (#09) myself.
Wrote this on another forum a while back;

What other sport includes Grappling, Striking and Multiple attackers moving at full speed on unreliable terrain, and with opponents of unlimited size and malevolence?

There's grappling, there's clinchwork, there's sprinting for your life, teamwork, peripheral awareness.
You'll get hit hard, without body armour.
You'll try and deal with multiple attackers.
There are no rounds, no mats, no cages.
Once you've fish hooked, kidney punched, testicle squeezed, cleat raked, rib knee'd, head butted, hand offed, nipple bitten and generally battled your way through around 80 minutes of pumped adrenalin and CV work, you get to stand at the bar and down a few ales with the guys who just tried to kill you.

Getting back to MA in Rugby;
Guys/Gals who are into their MMA should go practice against Rugby players.
If you want to practice your 'shoot', then tackling a Rugby player running at you full tilt on a muddy pitch, is the best test you will find. period.

Small joint manipulation is something not many Rugby players know about.
Same goes for pressure points and general nasty MA things, but Rugby players have their own tricks, and MA people could learn a few things in a scrum, ruck or maul.

Usually the average MA practitioner will train 1-2 times a week, for 1-2 hours at a time, as an instructor I must be aware of the time limitations for development that this sets and organise the training to cover not just the Wing Chun skills that I had been taught by Sifu, but also to include the extra-curricular awareness that I deem important, however to include them within the Wing Chun forms and syllabus rather than additional outside practice.

Hey, don't forget we're talking about 'one year' in Wing Chun here.
You're making it sound like it might only have been a couple of months in total.

It's like the old trick using a new banknote, saying that the volunteer can have the note if they can catch it.

What it demonstrates is basic reaction time, and the difference between fast nerves and slow ones.

Reflex speed as opposed to thnking speed.

My example was slightly different.
Related to previous examples of programming, and sub-conscious action;
One example illustrated the delay in processing 'visual' information, compared to pure sensitivity.

[Tom Yum]

Regardless, if you're at all athletic and train regularly it shouldn't take long to learn how hit hard- remember, I may box now but I learned how hit hard in a kung fu school. It's not kung fu that I have a problem with, it's this bullshit about it taking years to learn how to throw a competent strike.

I agree.

It doesn't take years to learn to hit hard.

[Sagacious Lu]

Its a different school of thought.

If you learn to throw a solid boxing type punch, you can damage whatever you hit; whether you are a 148 lbs or 248 lbs. Its simple; its effective and quick to employ.

If you learn to throw certain kinds of strikes from the traditional arts, the power comes from using a hard part of the body to strike a soft target or making someone move into a strike. By themselves, most of these strikes may not be impressive.

I don't think it's a different school of thought, I think it's just nonsense. I've practiced a lot of different strikes in the past, including (but not limited to) hammer fists, elbows, back fists, back of the wrist, and knees as well as a variety of kicks. Some strikes hit harder than others, some are only effective against specific targets, and some are (IMHO) just a bad idea. Regardless, if you're at all athletic and train regularly it shouldn't take long to learn how hit hard- remember, I may box now but I learned how hit hard in a kung fu school. It's not kung fu that I have a problem with, it's this bullshit about it taking years to learn how to throw a competent strike.

[Tom Yum]

Which is absurd. I can't think of much that's simpler or more basic than throwing a good hard punch. Once I was shown how to throw a punch it took me about 10 minutes of hitting a bag to realize that I could hit harder by using my legs and hips.

Its a different school of thought.

If you learn to throw a solid boxing type punch, you can damage whatever you hit; whether you are a 148 lbs or 248 lbs. Its simple; its effective and quick to employ.

If you learn to throw certain kinds of strikes from the traditional arts, the power comes from using a hard part of the body to strike a soft target or making someone move into a strike. By themselves, most of these strikes may not be impressive.

Let's say someone grabs you off guard and agressively pulls you in so they can toss you around, you get pulled off balance and off your power base but on the way in, their nose can still run into the crown of your head (assuming their taller) or their groin can still run into the knife-edge of your hand.

Thinking back to UFC 8 or around that time, Mark Hall (a highly ranked TMA black belt) fought a sumo-wrestler brawler type. Sumo guy gets ahold of Hall and something like the above happens. Sumo guy's nose is all over the place; Big John stepped in to stop the fight due to blood loss.

[Tom Yum]

First proper thread but will carry on the stance theme started by Thai Bri in my 'introduction'.

Most peoples idea of a Wing Chun stance is from stupid people trying to use the stances from the forms to fight with rather than the knowledge that they give you if you investigate them properly.

Stances from the first 2 forms are there simply to make you aware of your legs, develop strength and balence, in the third it is more flexible for real use.

To understand you legs takes time, hence many think of Chum Kiu as the most difficult form to learn as it introduces you to how you arms work together with the rest of the body and links the hand to the ground via the stances and the generation of energy through the various muscle groups.

The 'Skippy' hop stance that you see in many schools especially used along with chain punching is the most destructive practice routine for power development.

Simplifying each aspect of stepping and how it is being used allows you to involve it into everthing you do in Wing Chun.

Thai Bri I see the dropping step in the first and last section of Chum Kiu also linked to the uppercut in Biu Gee, but I will put more details in the next post.

Chain punching I only use as an exercise not an application, (though it can be effective against unskilled fighters), similar to the speed ball training in boxing which I respect and understand now through the Dempsey book.

So what you're saying, in a round-about manner, is that choice of training methods improves the combat application of traditional arts.

Drop the stuff that doesn't work and refine the stuff that does, right?

[Sagacious Lu]

Sagacious Lu asked
Why are the simpler things taught last? Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the simplist things first? IMHO the simple techniques are usually the most effective.

The problem is it takes years to realise the 'simple' stuff is simple and the other problem is that you still need the traditional methods because they have value for specific development,

This lofty business of lessons learned over the years is great and all, but you're dodging the real question. You said:

...but up against seasoned streetfighters or martial artists a beginner with less than 2-3 years tend not to have the knowledge of body mechanics to generate power from the floor and put full bodyweight behind a strike to make it decisive.

Which is absurd. I can't think of much that's simpler or more basic than throwing a good hard punch. Once I was shown how to throw a punch it took me about 10 minutes of hitting a bag to realize that I could hit harder by using my legs and hips. After a couple of weeks the motion felt comfortable and natural to me, and it was obvious from the way the bag moved when I hit it that I was hitting A LOT harder than I used to. It didn't take 2-3 years, it was more like 2-3 weeks. So I repeat the question I asked on page 2:

Why would it take all that time just to learn basic striking mechanics

[tjwingchun]

I believe the art could be effective; some of the master instructors can hit extremely quick. Seems like the strikes are aimed at soft targets. Add to that some good elbow and knee strikes. All it takes is one, maybe two solid strikes and the guy that was standing in front of you is staggering onto the ground.

I have no arguments with you at all, as mentioned in last post all you need to do is to able to deliver an in-range, non-telegraphed strike within 1/10 sec and it will land.

I teach hitting with the whole of the body, even with what would be classed as a jab (a la Jack Dempsey), from a 10" distance I break 3X1" boards (without pulling back), yes I know they don't hit back, but it indicates that there is power available at short range and fast, I am very elbow orientated as far as awareness is concerned for several reasons, both defence and offence.

WC gets a bad rap for the same reason karate point sparring does; the training methods.

Wing Chun has the bad rep for the number of McDojos, even when Wing Chun is done crap, people with experience, fast hands and big egos, can intimidate beginners who just walk in through the door, they are only found out by the students once the student has acquired enough knowledge to see that it does not work, that is if they have the intelligence or the will to question the instructor, but their money is already spent!

However the McDojo types have been exposed by the growth of NHB and now hide behind their lethal capabilities, striving to keep their heads above the sea of shite their arrogance has created around them.

Wingchun could be adapted to sports compeition. Striking would have to be done with fists - low kicks, trapping and kneeing would be perfectly legit.

Easily adapted with minimal change, just takes specific training to specific rules and just not using high intensity violent threat level reponses, the sort of techniques I relate to drunken teenagers, rather than drugged up psychopaths.

Why doesn't someone take it to a competitive level? Its the artist not the art that makes most fighters - allbeit simpler arts can be used more readily in a short-training time.

www.alanorr.com Alan has the set up for competitive NHB and two of my students have joined his camp and I am sure there will be a growth of more such clubs and hence an increase in the presence of Wing Chun in NHB events.

Sure the style may not be designed for competition, but if it can stand up against an olympic TKD fighter, decent amateur muay thai fighter or even a giant brawler it would be taken more seriously.

Again you are right but I refer back to the previous paragrah, it's not rocket science, it's fighting and if, as Wing Chun people we are going to join into the wider discussion I agree we must be seen and not just heard.

For my part I am a bit past the competing stage, though I have been seriously thinking about it. Even at 47 years old with a knackered back and creaking joints, I am tempted to have a go, but more realistically I am starting an informational website and via that opening up the opportunity to educate at least theoretically, about Wing Chun fighting techniques, stategies and methods that could be taken on by anybody in the NHB game, not just Wing Chun.