Forms vs reality?

[jubaji]

Do you consider making a fist unnatural?

[jonbey]

Not personally, but I have met people that have over the years.

[Red Rum]

Jonbey - when you get angry what do you do? For me I make fists. It feels natural.

What is unnatural is throwing them out and getting targets right. But the whole creation of the fist is very natural

[jonbey]

Ah, but what sort of fist? Phoenix eye, leapard, crane? What I meant (and only as an example) is that much of what is learnt in a martial art does not come naturally to some people. And I have met people that when starting out could not hold a standard boxers fist correctly either, for example having the thumb tucked inside the fingers. They soon learnt, but it took some practice to feel comfortable with it. This is where forms can help, by practicing using different fists, quickly changing from palm to finger thrust to fist etc. If you have the chance to learnt hand to hand, then forms are not required, but as a means of practicing what has been taught in class, and refining and improving, forms are great.

Not everyone is a born fighter.

P.S. I never get angry.

[Red Rum]

Anyone who can't hold a fist must be an idiot. I agree that people have different energies and in certain drills people get confused about what the pattern is (ie they might palm strike rather than punch by accident).

But even to form a phoenix eye - when I was shown it I did it straight away. And I'm not exactly a quick learner.

If you were talking about forms, patterns or katas I could understand. they are hard to remember and can be hard to get the sequence right. Yet, to close a fist? How do they grip things in the real world?

If they are that stupid that they do not understand a basic concept such as close fist, thumb on top, then they shouldn't be doing martial arts. I have never had any student walk in to class and say that they couldn't close their fist properly

[jonbey]

If they are that stupid that they do not understand a basic concept such as close fist, thumb on top, then they shouldn't be doing martial arts.

Surely the reason to do a martial art is to learn these things? If everyone was a natural fighter from birth there would be little demand for our martial arts schools!

Anyway, that being said, it was only meant to act as an example of why forms are useful, it is not the only reason by all means.

[Red Rum]

You are right in that a martial art is meant to teach people how to perform complex movements. But a fist is not a complex movement. It is as simple as... closing your fist!

If you have new students who can't even do that, they are a hopeless cause.

[jonbey]

Well, I have actually only ever known one person who said that they did not know how to hold a proper fist before starting training, and he went on to teach Hung Kuen, and had a pretty damn good punch with it in the end, so he was not a hopeless cause!

I am sure there are many examples of other people that could not perform the simplest martial / fighting technique when they started, and yet have gone on to be very competent fighters. Don't judge a person by their first attempt at something. As a teacher, you should be capable of taking these "hopeless causes" and training them to be excellent fighters. If you shirk away at that responsibility, then you should question your own teaching ability.

[npk9]

As a teacher, you should be capable of taking these "hopeless causes" and training them to be excellent fighters. If you shirk away at that responsibility, then you should question your own teaching ability.

Excellent in what way??? How many hopeless causes have you trained to be excellent fighters?

Shirking away from what responsibility? Being a responisble martial artist? or is it being a responsible teacher? 2 are very different things. Just because you're awesome in the arts doesn't make you an awesome teacher and vice versa.

[jonbey]

The point I really want to get across is simply that, if a new student enters a club, then it is not really fair, or correct even, to send them packing because they show no signs or an martial ability whatsoever. If they are keen to learn, surely you should teach them. You can deny requests for private tuition if you feel that it will not actually benefit them, but can you really say that you would send someone away, on the grounds that you think that they are a hopeless cause, because they know nothing about fighting? Wouldn't you gain a feeling of pride and achievement if you taught them to become a good, or even average, martial artist, after your tuition and guidance?

[Red Rum]

Jonbey, that is nonsense. There are people in this world who just cannot do martial arts. It is not an instructors responsibility to train someone who cannot learn. It takes you away from people who want to be martial artists and work hard

I am not talking about people who struggle to do a complex or difficult move, but a person who can't close a fist? It is not worth training them. Or are you from the 'take their money and let them believe they are doing well' generation

In ancient times, you had to prove that you were worthy to learn martial arts before you could train. Oh how times have changed...

[npk9]

Yeah, I would have to agree Red here. This happens all the time - especially with children who do not want to learn (which is even worst then not being able to do it). I mean what are you going to say to the parents? "Sorry, We're not accepting unwilling students, clearly your child does not want to be here and I cannot teach under these circumstances"

There are just too many benefits to just keep your mouth shut and show them as much as you can even though they are simply not absorbing any material.

Things have changed quite dramatically.

[jonbey]

You do have a point. I agree entirely that anyone who does not want to learn should not be there (are parents listening?). Maybe the case I knew was unique, a one in a million.

[Red Rum]

Yeah I mean to be fair there are students out there who aren't bothered whether they progress or not

We had two students at Kamon who had trained for 6 years and hadn't really learnt a thing. It was okay in the sense that they enjoyed coming down training and being social, but the big problem was when they trained with other students. They would be doing some other thing and the student wouldn't know what to say!

I am always keen to make my class grow but I have found that having a class of 30 dedicated students is far better than a class of 60 people who are just there to muck around
Even if I get less money!!

[300 million vol]

it's a slime chance you would use ur forms in a street fight