Forms vs reality?

[stickbowhunter]

I used to question forms myself in my younger years. then i realized they help me get the flow of the style, give me the basics, help build endurance, help with transition of stances, HELP THE MIND AND BODY BECOME ONE. and then it happens, you start to show the flow of your style, you start to generate power the correct way, YOUR MIND AND BODY BECOME ONE. you no longer block then strike then set up to block and strike again..... you block and strike at the same time then you suddenly find yourself with another opportunity to do something else that you really don't think about.... you just do it.

sme

[medic06]

I kind of know what you mean (different arts strike differently, use fists differently etc), but it shouldn't take two seconds for a person to correct that.

If a person just can't grasp the concept that a thumb on the inside of the fingers is bad, then they are better off doing a non-sport/martial art related activity.

Aku aku - I would love to know who the attacker was for the form guy. He should be strung up and humiliated for eternity.
The person doing the form during the fight should be exiled from martial arts!

Deluded deluded people. Now I understand why wing chun and kung fu have such bad names

It's one thing to teach people how to form a correct fist. That's easy. The hard part is breaking that old habit. That takes practice and time. . . .

[Red Rum]

It's not so much that they can't close their fist, it's that they usually have a bad placement of their thumbs.

I kind of know what you mean (different arts strike differently, use fists differently etc), but it shouldn't take two seconds for a person to correct that.

If a person just can't grasp the concept that a thumb on the inside of the fingers is bad, then they are better off doing a non-sport/martial art related activity.

Aku aku - I would love to know who the attacker was for the form guy. He should be strung up and humiliated for eternity.
The person doing the form during the fight should be exiled from martial arts!

Deluded deluded people. Now I understand why wing chun and kung fu have such bad names

[jonbey]

ah, that is precisely the point I was making.

Actually, I was watching Beni, my 1 month old son, closing his fist yesterday, and the thumb was always inside the fingers. This seems to be natural in a newborn.

I shall monitor his natural fist development as he grows up. Maybe later it will feel natural to hold the thumb outside, but I think it is most likely this will have to be taught.

[medic06]

Jonbey, that is nonsense. There are people in this world who just cannot do martial arts. It is not an instructors responsibility to train someone who cannot learn. It takes you away from people who want to be martial artists and work hard

I am not talking about people who struggle to do a complex or difficult move, but a person who can't close a fist? It is not worth training them. Or are you from the 'take their money and let them believe they are doing well' generation

In ancient times, you had to prove that you were worthy to learn martial arts before you could train. Oh how times have changed...

It's not so much that they can't close their fist, it's that they usually have a bad placement of their thumbs.

[aku aku]

You are right in that a martial art is meant to teach people how to perform complex movements. But a fist is not a complex movement. It is as simple as... closing your fist!

If you have new students who can't even do that, they are a hopeless cause.

I've run across several people who just couldn't do what I considered to be the simplest of things but those are the people who need trianing the most. If you break it down for them and they put in the practice time they will progress and improve.

[aku aku]

How? What forms? You couldn't stand there and do siu nim tao (wing chun), whilst someone is attacking you. If you are talking about using extracts of forms then fair enough, but I would disagree that this is 'using your forms'.

Saying that, Daniel Laruso managed it at the end of Karate Kid 3....
'Best Karate still inside... Now time let out'
'Get the point, get the point...'

I think it's kind of assumed that you wouldn't stand there and go through your forms when you're attacked, although I heard of one instance where that's exactly what happened.

[Red Rum]

it's a slime chance you would use ur forms in a street fight

How? What forms? You couldn't stand there and do siu nim tao (wing chun), whilst someone is attacking you. If you are talking about using extracts of forms then fair enough, but I would disagree that this is 'using your forms'.

Saying that, Daniel Laruso managed it at the end of Karate Kid 3....
'Best Karate still inside... Now time let out'
'Get the point, get the point...'

[300 million vol]

it's a slime chance you would use ur forms in a street fight

[Red Rum]

Yeah I mean to be fair there are students out there who aren't bothered whether they progress or not

We had two students at Kamon who had trained for 6 years and hadn't really learnt a thing. It was okay in the sense that they enjoyed coming down training and being social, but the big problem was when they trained with other students. They would be doing some other thing and the student wouldn't know what to say!

I am always keen to make my class grow but I have found that having a class of 30 dedicated students is far better than a class of 60 people who are just there to muck around
Even if I get less money!!

[jonbey]

You do have a point. I agree entirely that anyone who does not want to learn should not be there (are parents listening?). Maybe the case I knew was unique, a one in a million.

[npk9]

Yeah, I would have to agree Red here. This happens all the time - especially with children who do not want to learn (which is even worst then not being able to do it). I mean what are you going to say to the parents? "Sorry, We're not accepting unwilling students, clearly your child does not want to be here and I cannot teach under these circumstances"

There are just too many benefits to just keep your mouth shut and show them as much as you can even though they are simply not absorbing any material.

Things have changed quite dramatically.

[Red Rum]

Jonbey, that is nonsense. There are people in this world who just cannot do martial arts. It is not an instructors responsibility to train someone who cannot learn. It takes you away from people who want to be martial artists and work hard

I am not talking about people who struggle to do a complex or difficult move, but a person who can't close a fist? It is not worth training them. Or are you from the 'take their money and let them believe they are doing well' generation

In ancient times, you had to prove that you were worthy to learn martial arts before you could train. Oh how times have changed...

[jonbey]

The point I really want to get across is simply that, if a new student enters a club, then it is not really fair, or correct even, to send them packing because they show no signs or an martial ability whatsoever. If they are keen to learn, surely you should teach them. You can deny requests for private tuition if you feel that it will not actually benefit them, but can you really say that you would send someone away, on the grounds that you think that they are a hopeless cause, because they know nothing about fighting? Wouldn't you gain a feeling of pride and achievement if you taught them to become a good, or even average, martial artist, after your tuition and guidance?

[npk9]

As a teacher, you should be capable of taking these "hopeless causes" and training them to be excellent fighters. If you shirk away at that responsibility, then you should question your own teaching ability.

Excellent in what way??? How many hopeless causes have you trained to be excellent fighters?

Shirking away from what responsibility? Being a responisble martial artist? or is it being a responsible teacher? 2 are very different things. Just because you're awesome in the arts doesn't make you an awesome teacher and vice versa.