Forms vs reality?

[jubaji]

Forms taught me to hit with incredible power.

And video games taught me how to fly a fighter jet!

[Mephariel]

What about people who place 1st in forms competition all the time and can't fight worth a sh*t? Is that a coincidence or is it just a way to "empower" people who suck at fighting??

I used to train with a guy like that and I felt like he was always trying to "correct" my forms....and yet he sucked at fighting.

The answer to your question is, neither. It just depends on what the heck you are talking about. Wushu competitions are choreographed dances and demostrations. They are not real martial arts. It is not a way to empower people who suck at fighting, it is simply a sport. The guy you train with sucks because he did forms and nothing else. I am willing to bet that he never been in any constant free sparring training.

[Mephariel]

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Not this again....

Tai Chi is an art.

Qi Gong is NOT an art. Qi Gong is a concept.

Wushu is not an art. Wushu means martial arts. Wushu in modern day sense means performance martial arts. Either way, wushu itself is not an art.

[shaolin-warrior]

Forms taught me to hit with incredible power. Take away the form and the power in my punch is still there. This is because the punch is done with proper form and weight transfer.

[polecat63]

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Not this again....

Yep. just doesn't make any sense, does it?

[jubaji]

There are arts like Tai Chi, Qi Gong and Wushu which aren't really fighting arts, but people still include them in the martial art world.

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Not this again....

[Red Rum]

What about people who place 1st in forms competition all the time and can't fight worth a sh*t? Is that a coincidence or is it just a way to "empower" people who suck at fighting??

I used to train with a guy like that and I felt like he was always trying to "correct" my forms....and yet he sucked at fighting.

Remember that people do martial arts for different reasons. I have seen people able to stand on one leg for a great deal of time keeping balance but struggle as fighters. Others can lift great weights using stances, but aren't great fighters. I know that people usually define martial arts through how well someone fights, but you can't really do this. If a boxer faced a muay thai guy and the MT guy just kicked him over and over again, does that make the boxer a bad martial artist?

There are arts like Tai Chi, Qi Gong and Wushu which aren't really fighting arts, but people still include them in the martial art world.

What would annoyt me is if someone claimed that they could take an opponent down because they have done forms for twenty years etc.

As we have said previously - forms are just another part of training. Certain arts may emphasise formwork more. Some arts may emphasise fighting more. Some arts might emphasise fitness more

As long as the person gets something out of it, it's fine

[jubaji]

Wha???

Remember, the forms represent Oriental thought.

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[kwai chang pain]

What about people who place 1st in forms competition all the time and can't fight worth a sh*t? Is that a coincidence or is it just a way to "empower" people who suck at fighting??

I used to train with a guy like that and I felt like he was always trying to "correct" my forms....and yet he sucked at fighting.

[sunfist]

Aku Aku--my 2 cents worth

In the 50's when I was doing Kempo and Karate, we were taught a form, like the Pinan forms for ex, THEN you had to perfect each of the moves in the form against a partner. To that degree the forms were connected to the sparring, rather than disassociated as they often are today. A second point is that in the dojo we practiced our stances by going lower and lower (and wider) over time to both strengthen and limber the legs. BUT when you started preparing for free fighting, you stood in the posture that was most efficient as well as effective for you. Remember, the forms represent Oriental thought. They did not have boxing (for ex) or if they did it was limited, so they didn't stand so as to be faster on their feet, like a kickboxer today might. This kind of training probably went the way of the dinosaurs but this is one concept of how it "used to be done."
sunfist

[suhieb]

Just striking? What about defence. A big part of wing chun forms is defining your structure so that you can block bigger guys.

If a person hit a bag for twenty years without being taught anything about shapes or structures, they would be good hitter, but they wouldn't be as good as a person who has trained in martial arts for twenty years.

Forms are just an add on to the martial arts world. It is good to train on your own and with other people

Yeah you pritty much said it all in here

[Red Rum]

Forms are a waste of time. One only becomes a better striker by strengthening bones and punching other people in the face.

Playing with imaginary friends only makes people think you're insane.

Just striking? What about defence. A big part of wing chun forms is defining your structure so that you can block bigger guys.

If a person hit a bag for twenty years without being taught anything about shapes or structures, they would be good hitter, but they wouldn't be as good as a person who has trained in martial arts for twenty years.

Forms are just an add on to the martial arts world. It is good to train on your own and with other people

[jeff5]

I'll give you all my perspective. (whether you want it or not! P) I'm someone who's gone back and forth on this. For years I didn't do forms as part of the whole JKD/FMA/MMA crowd. Recently I've gotten back into doing them with an art that I've fallen in love with.

Forms can be tricky, because if you don't have a good instructor who understands them, their uses will be very limited.

The brilliance of many forms, or of the people who teach them, is that you can and should be working multiple things within a single movement. Below are some of the values that I've been taught and taken out of forms in my limited experience.

- At a very basic level, you're getting yourself in shape. Some forms are extremely strenuous, and one purpose is to improve you physically.

- At another quite basic level forms teach techniques. The most basic level is exactly what you see in the form.

- At a bit of a deeper level, there are multiple interpretations for single posture or position in a form. The structure may be an entry, a strike, a lock, a throw, etc. The key here is that you start learning to not interpret what your doing literally, but on a more figurative and theory based level.

- At yet another level your learning meta-movements, or core body movements. Meaning that its not just the exact techinque, but the full range of motion and body potential for that specific posture, and how to apply it in combat. The application may not look exactly like the form, but the core principles will be there.

- Another level is that your learning power generation, body mechanics, and principles of movement. Here we move away from the specific techniques in the forms and focus more on HOW the form is performed. You can perform the same form multiple ways depending on what your working on. The beauty of this level is that since the focus is on theories, principles, and mechanics, they can be applied to any movement that you do and aren't limited by a specific techinque.

In the end I think forms are good teaching tools. By doing a specific movement or set of movements your working several different things to make you combat ready instead of working them all seperately. But in saying that, they have to be combined with a good teacher who can show you how to interpret them, partner practice, and sparring. By themselves, forms will not make you a fighter.

I think that the original question was something like when you spar or fight does it look exactly like the form. Of course not. How could it? A form is pre-set, and each and every sparring session, or encounter, you will be in will be completely different. The key is that you've learned important principles, theories, and techinques from the form that you can apply if needed.

[Uke]

Forms are a better use of you time than posting crap

Ain't that the truth.

[medic06]

Forms are a better use of you time than posting crap