Forms vs reality?

[jonbey]

Well, I have actually only ever known one person who said that they did not know how to hold a proper fist before starting training, and he went on to teach Hung Kuen, and had a pretty damn good punch with it in the end, so he was not a hopeless cause!

I am sure there are many examples of other people that could not perform the simplest martial / fighting technique when they started, and yet have gone on to be very competent fighters. Don't judge a person by their first attempt at something. As a teacher, you should be capable of taking these "hopeless causes" and training them to be excellent fighters. If you shirk away at that responsibility, then you should question your own teaching ability.

[Red Rum]

You are right in that a martial art is meant to teach people how to perform complex movements. But a fist is not a complex movement. It is as simple as... closing your fist!

If you have new students who can't even do that, they are a hopeless cause.

[jonbey]

If they are that stupid that they do not understand a basic concept such as close fist, thumb on top, then they shouldn't be doing martial arts.

Surely the reason to do a martial art is to learn these things? If everyone was a natural fighter from birth there would be little demand for our martial arts schools!

Anyway, that being said, it was only meant to act as an example of why forms are useful, it is not the only reason by all means.

[Red Rum]

Anyone who can't hold a fist must be an idiot. I agree that people have different energies and in certain drills people get confused about what the pattern is (ie they might palm strike rather than punch by accident).

But even to form a phoenix eye - when I was shown it I did it straight away. And I'm not exactly a quick learner.

If you were talking about forms, patterns or katas I could understand. they are hard to remember and can be hard to get the sequence right. Yet, to close a fist? How do they grip things in the real world?

If they are that stupid that they do not understand a basic concept such as close fist, thumb on top, then they shouldn't be doing martial arts. I have never had any student walk in to class and say that they couldn't close their fist properly

[jonbey]

Ah, but what sort of fist? Phoenix eye, leapard, crane? What I meant (and only as an example) is that much of what is learnt in a martial art does not come naturally to some people. And I have met people that when starting out could not hold a standard boxers fist correctly either, for example having the thumb tucked inside the fingers. They soon learnt, but it took some practice to feel comfortable with it. This is where forms can help, by practicing using different fists, quickly changing from palm to finger thrust to fist etc. If you have the chance to learnt hand to hand, then forms are not required, but as a means of practicing what has been taught in class, and refining and improving, forms are great.

Not everyone is a born fighter.

P.S. I never get angry.

[Red Rum]

Jonbey - when you get angry what do you do? For me I make fists. It feels natural.

What is unnatural is throwing them out and getting targets right. But the whole creation of the fist is very natural

[jonbey]

Not personally, but I have met people that have over the years.

[jubaji]

Do you consider making a fist unnatural?

[jonbey]

Any movement that a human would not naturally do. For some people something as simple as holding a fist requires practice. Many strikes require slightly unnatural position of limbs along centre lines for example.

[jubaji]

Back to the question at hand, I think that forms have 3 main purposes:

1. To condition the body to perform certain movements, which are unnatural (practice makes perfect)

What do you mean by "which are unnatural"?

[jonbey]

Back to the question at hand, I think that forms have 3 main purposes:

1. To condition the body to perform certain movements, which are unnatural (practice makes perfect)

2. Condition the body alignment, stance etc. for generation of power

3. To act as a means of remembering / training a technique when on your own. Every form I have ever trained has martial applications, and if you do not have a training partner / 24 hour club then forms are the way to train technique - just as shadow boxing and bag work is for boxers.

Styles which only have forms do not make good fighters, but do not put all qigong / tai chi styles / schools in the same category, as many teachers of internal arts do teach the applications, fighting forms and sticking hands, all of which teach you how to fight with it.

Cheers,

Jon.

[jubaji]

Imagine a fluffer like you knowing anything outside of being on your knees .. taking the load of whichever moderator you're blowing at the time to keep from being permanently banned.

That'll be the day.

Here we see pUke's repeating skills in action as he tries to drag the same lame joke all over the forum.

We also see his sad frustration over the fact that his life-long dream of being a moderator has never been fulfilled.

[jubaji]

And as for Jubajii - you have a frustrating habit of writing silly on line answers to posts that don't exactly help.

...........................................


Bite me.

[Uke]

And video games taught me how to fly a fighter jet!

Imagine a fluffer like you knowing anything outside of being on your knees .. taking the load of whichever moderator you're blowing at the time to keep from being permanently banned.

That'll be the day.

[Red Rum]

Tai Chi is an art.

Qi Gong is NOT an art. Qi Gong is a concept.

Wushu is not an art. Wushu means martial arts. Wushu in modern day sense means performance martial arts. Either way, wushu itself is not an art.

You have just said that wushu means martial arts!!!
I was talking in the broader sense - I said that these styles/ideas/concepts, are still categorised under the martial arts. If you go to any Yellow Pages Qi Gong is listed under martial arts. If you read Martial Arts Illustrated Qi Gong and wushu are included. I don't care about what they are designed for - many wushu practitioners (Jet Li) claim that they can use it for fighting.

It is like non-contact karate - because there is no contact you could technically call it a performing martial art. Yet it would still fall under the remit of the martial arts world.

It is like the whole Buddhism thing - people argue over whether Buddhism is a philosophy or a religion. Yet most of the time when people talk about 'world religion' it is still included

Hope this clarifies

And as for Jubajii - you have a frustrating habit of writing silly on line answers to posts that don't exactly help. You either write sensible answers, or don't bother posting