Forms vs reality?

[aku aku]

why spend valuable time learning the dance when you can be conditionning yourself and be evolving so much faster?Don't kid yourself..seriously..i was like you before

I read an interview with Steve Cotter, a hsing yi stylist and full contact kung fu champ. His comment was that fighters shouldn't spend much time on forms, they should spend most of their time drilling and sparring. If you're not a fighter then you should spend more time on your forms because they contain the principles and concepts of the system.

Someone will probably point out that a fighter needs the principles and concepts of the system too but, if he has a good coach training him, he will probably be given what he needs.

[white devil]

oh i have another question.....i know where boxers fight...but where do kung fu fighters fight?....besides in movies set

[white devil]

Why do Boxers run on the field and punch bags? Same reason. Why do Muay Thai fighters kick pads with a straight leg over and over again? Same reason. Think about when you first watch a boxer fight as a kid and you are trying to mimic the boxer's combinations. Left jab jab jab jab, Right Hook! When you do it, how do you feel? You feel no power, and you are probably slow and uncomfortable. Forms is just a way to perform all your moves over and over again so you can gain fluidity and power.

Just like a Boxer can't fight by just punching bags, a kung fu fighter cannot fight by doing forms. But both the kung fu fighter and the boxer need to train their foundations so when they do apply the moves to a real fight, they feel fluid and have maximum power.

Why do you skip rope and run in boxing????

ok,first of all running and skipping is not sport specific

Theres a difference you should understand between hitting a bag and shadowboxing, and performing pretty kung fu forms.Shadowboxing,sure it requires the fundamentals to be properly taught..but all the rest is left to your imagination.Forms are exact mimics of what you ''should'' do..if only forms limited themselves to simple executions (like in pad work) there wouldnt be much of a problem...the problem is the exact reproduction of a complex form that is more useless than pretty...plus the fact that it is non adaptable.

Now you tell me you'd rather execute forms because it trains your rythm,stamina and technique...what technique? a 4 year old can mimic a form...4 year old cant shadowbox freely

why spend valuable time learning the dance when you can be conditionning yourself and be evolving so much faster?Don't kid yourself..seriously..i was like you before

[Mephariel]

But why don't the moves in the forms mimic the actual application of the techniques? I've heard it said that when you do it for real you would use a higher stance or shorten the technique or hold your hand in guard position instead of chambering it on your hip, or grab the opponant's weapon instead of holding your hand in crane beak position, etc. Why aren't all those things done in the forms as well? Why is the "classical presentation" different from the application?

Stances: When you say you say fighters uses a higher stance in real life, I assume you mean in general when they are fighting (moving around). In that case, that just depends on the individual. Chuck Liddell has a different footwork than most boxers. Different boxers have different footwork, etc. If you are anticipating the shoot, you might get lower or hunch forward. Whether or not you use a higher or a lower stance is just preference. Lower stances might give you more power, but less mobility. It just depends on the master and the individual and the situation. In many kung fu systems, you always train in low stances in their theory, that gives you the most power (and most pain and discipline). If you can do the lowest stance, you have the stamia to do the higher stances, etc. It also depends on the art. If you look at pictures of masters that fought Thai fighters for the first time in China, those masters uses low stances. Bajiquan partitioners prefers a higher stance for shoulder work. That is precisely why you have to spar. When you do it for real, you adjust your game according to you and your opponent. Forms gives you the tools, the energy, and the concepts. You have to pick and choose which one to use with.

As for grabbing for the weapon instead of using crane break positions, I am not sure. Praying Mantis partitioners drilled using Mantis hand formations. And animal style masters like Dennis Brown in the US trains people to hold their hands in various animal positions as well. I am guessing that with a weapon, you might want to grapple it away instead of striking the guy because strikes with a fist is no match for strikes with a knife.

So to answer your first question: Why can't forms mimic the application of the technique? I think it is because they aimed for a different purpose. Forms teaches foundations. Application knowledge teaches how to use that foundation.

Think about basketball.

You start out doing drills. Running up a down the court, dribbling at a certain level. You might do 1000 shots a day. You might do it at a certain speed. You might spread your hands for defense. However, in a real game, you might not always dribble as low or high as your training coach tells you. You might not always shoot at perfect form because you have to adjust your shot. You might gamble a lot more on defense because your opponent is slow.

That is forms vs. fighting.

[aku aku]

I see it like this:

Forms trains you to be precise in your deliveries of each individual moves. Forms are like the formulas that you memorized before a math exam. Forms also trains your strength, stamia, and other physical aspects of your body.

But why don't the moves in the forms mimic the actual application of the techniques? I've heard it said that when you do it for real you would use a higher stance or shorten the technique or hold your hand in guard position instead of chambering it on your hip, or grab the opponant's weapon instead of holding your hand in crane beak position, etc. Why aren't all those things done in the forms as well? Why is the "classical presentation" different from the application?

[suhieb]

Ive never really understood why chinese martial artist do those forms.

Kata or shadow boxing is one thing, but some of those Taichi forms are just pointless as hell i think. Sure, it probably builds you body up well but so do alot of other excersizes.

FORMS ARE THE EQUILIVLANT OF KATA'S !!!!

Tai Chi is not an art that is designed to fight or be used in combat more to focus and allow your Chi to flow but it just has combat applications that give you "ideas" of what to do in a situation.

Suhieb

[Mephariel]

It doesnt really make sense...its like a tennis player who trains to be the best at tennis by fixing bikes.

Why do Boxers run on the field and punch bags? Same reason. Why do Muay Thai fighters kick pads with a straight leg over and over again? Same reason. Think about when you first watch a boxer fight as a kid and you are trying to mimic the boxer's combinations. Left jab jab jab jab, Right Hook! When you do it, how do you feel? You feel no power, and you are probably slow and uncomfortable. Forms is just a way to perform all your moves over and over again so you can gain fluidity and power.

Just like a Boxer can't fight by just punching bags, a kung fu fighter cannot fight by doing forms. But both the kung fu fighter and the boxer need to train their foundations so when they do apply the moves to a real fight, they feel fluid and have maximum power.

[Mephariel]

In my opinion, you should always train the same way you fight,if not..are you really training?

I see it like this:

Forms trains you to be precise in your deliveries of each individual moves. Forms are like the formulas that you memorized before a math exam. Forms also trains your strength, stamia, and other physical aspects of your body.

Sparring/fighting trains you to use those formulas and apply them in a particular situation. Sparring is your math exam.

If you only know forms, then you are useless because will only know each formula without knowing how to apply them.

If you only fight without training foundations, then you will be applying those equations without much purpose and confidence.

[medic06]

It doesnt really make sense...its like a tennis player who trains to be the best at tennis by fixing bikes.

Why do you skip rope and run in boxing????

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Ive never really understood why chinese martial artist do those forms.

Kata or shadow boxing is one thing, but some of those Taichi forms are just pointless as hell i think. Sure, it probably builds you body up well but so do alot of other excersizes.

[white devil]

It doesnt really make sense...its like a tennis player who trains to be the best at tennis by fixing bikes.

[aku aku]

You are not doing stuff differently. I don't think you understand what people are saying. When you do a kung fu punch, it should look like a kung fu punch in terms of delivery just like in your forms. When you do a kung fu kick, it should look like the kicks in your forms. But due to the choatic nature of fights, your punches won't match up perfectly with what you do in fights. It is that simple. The limiting factor of forms is that it is assuming you can perform all the forms all the time. It might not be that way.

So the forms represent the ideal which you may or may not achieve?

I had a video on full contact choy li fut and it didn't look at all like the choy li fut I was exposed to, it looked more like funny muay thai.

I do know that sometimes certain moves are exaggerated to help the learning process. I talked to a karate guy before who showed me a basic block and explained that they practice it that way but in sparring they would use a shorter, quicker version of it. I can respect that but it seems to me that, at some point, you need to start practicing the shorter quicker version if you really want to be able to use it.

[Mephariel]

So forms and fighting do look different?

Sorry to be difficult, I think the point of my question might have been misunderstood.

I'm not thinking of your mentality or how forms are used or what you should be thinking about, I'm just wondering; Do the moves in forms resemble the actual application?

When a kickboxer punches or kicks a heavy bag, it looks a lot like how he uses it in the ring. When a boxer does drills with the focus mitts or shadow boxes, he moves pretty much the same way he would move in the ring. When a kung fu person does the stances, kicks and punches in his forms; does it look similar to sparring and fighting?

I know that there are kung fu systems that make a point of practicing the same way they fight but I get the impression that this isn't universal and I'm wondering what is the reason for possibly doing something one way in a form and doing it a different way in application.

You are not doing stuff differently. I don't think you understand what people are saying. When you do a kung fu punch, it should look like a kung fu punch in terms of delivery just like in your forms. When you do a kung fu kick, it should look like the kicks in your forms. But due to the choatic nature of fights, your punches won't match up perfectly with what you do in fights. It is that simple. The limiting factor of forms is that it is assuming you can perform all the forms all the time. It might not be that way.

[white devil]

In my opinion, you should always train the same way you fight,if not..are you really training?

[suhieb]

Well yes and no....

In a situation where you are fighing a person from a different style/art then there may be very little fighting that resembles your forms, however if you are fightins an opponent from the same style then your fight may incoperate a lot more of your forms.

In my opinion

Forms teach you to fight other forms
Drills like kickboxing are for fighting ona more general scale

hope this helps you in some way

Suhieb