When is wing chun not wing chun ?

[kngfu]

The WC (Ving Tsun) that I was taught was supposed to free you from the bonds of other traditional Chinese martial arts. Although, my VT sifu used to tease me about my Shaolin Tiger Crane techniques, but when anything was introduced in class that was not strictly VT he used to flip out.

I have seen so many people with "Wing Chun blinders" on that can't see that anything other than the official techniques laid out by the school are effective to add to your arsenal. The system was meant for quick attacks and escapes. Add a knife to the hand when doing some of the attacks and you have a pretty effective looking guerilla type combat system that is menat for hit it and quit it fighting.

When it's not WC is when you add Shaolin pole techniques and battle punching that does changes the fundamental you learned in the Siu Nim Tao.=my opinion

[Liberty]

The WC (Ving Tsun) that I was taught was supposed to free you from the bonds of other traditional Chinese martial arts. Although, my VT sifu used to tease me about my Shaolin Tiger Crane techniques, but when anything was introduced in class that was not strictly VT he used to flip out.

I have seen so many people with "Wing Chun blinders" on that can't see that anything other than the official techniques laid out by the school are effective to add to your arsenal. The system was meant for quick attacks and escapes. Add a knife to the hand when doing some of the attacks and you have a pretty effective looking guerilla type combat system that is menat for hit it and quit it fighting.

When it's not WC is when you add Shaolin pole techniques and battle punching that does changes the fundamental you learned in the Siu Nim Tao.=my opinion

Here you go, progressive Wing Chun:

sifu chow's integrating wing chun

[kngfu]

I have a few of his videos. Very informative.

[TTEscrima]

WC is an enigma. The stories surrounding it's origins are fishy at best, who founded it and where it came from is of great debate among different lineages. I've studied a number of WC systems and their lineages and come to a few conclusions that seem to make more sense than the the usual story. Again this is just MY OWN conclusions about an art I've studied for nearly 30 years.

WC was designed as a way to teach the rebels who were fighting the government in as short a time frame as possible. That couldn't very well be the story they used to explain the arts existence though or they'd have brought the heat on themselves even faster. Think about this for a moment, if you're training rebels most likely you are outnumbered. If you are outnumbered then direct confrontation is never to your advantage. This would mean the techniques would be used differently than the techniques you would teach soldiers. Rebels would likely be moving alone or in small groups in an attempt to blend into the crowd. If discovered then most likely the object would be to capture and interrogate the rebel. The usual means of detaining someone for a search or to question them would be to grab them by the wrist or elbow to pull them aside. If you examine the movements that make up the core techniques of WC you'll discover wrist rolls (classic escape from grabs) Tan sao (upward dissolves, also classic wrist releases) and Bong sao (follow the limb dissolves) of grabbing attacks. Any of the dissolves combined with a quick of flurry of chain punches or throat cutting hand would have been an ideal way to surprise the officer and allow escape. However, marketing an art designed to resist arrest isn't going to be easy in any culture at any time so when the art was taught to the public many years later a different face had to be put on things. People were led to believe WC was for fighting which requires a different a completely different set of applications from what was likely their original intent.

Some people prefer to believe the art was invented when a Snake and Crane were observed fighting, others prefer to believe a Nun wanted to prevent herself from being forced to marry a bully, I believe they are cover stories.
Where it came from isn't really that important unless the stories mislead you to the arts intent, I find WC works much better when using the techniques to avoid being detained than for fighting but your experience may well vary.

[Liberty]

I have a few of his videos. Very informative.

Could you post what they cover and how thorough they are.

In hopes of warning others, I used to own a set of William Cheung's DVDs (by Black Belt Magazine) and they were just poor. I'd've been better off buying one of those no money down, wealth beyond your wildest dreams by Tuesday, courses!

His English is horrendous, he is unable to communicate a principle (as with some people who will, for example, in explaining something, not, then follow that up with the phrase, "well, you know.")

His focus is off throughout all the DVDs. While, at times, as he is about to execute a Dummy move, or whatever, he actually looks as if he's feeling, "Wait a minute... give me a minute..., I know this," goofs that up, then follows that up with another seeming, "no one noticed... I hope."

His demo partner, Eric, a senior instructor under him is good, though. And articulate, but unfortunately, as is way to often the case with "masters" Cheung can't, or won't, see that perhaps someone else might be better in an area he is weak in, so one is left to deal with Cheung's "inarticulation."

Worse of all is how he has to reset himself each time he is going to repeat some technique. As if he's drilled so much that he's become stuck in some sort of an opening move twight light zone he's been condemned to for eternity, having to start over, and over, and over....... before he can move forward.

After I got over my sense of having been ripped off, I was left with a disappointed 'this is the guy who, at every opportunity, claims he was better than his Wing Chun class mate, Bruce Lee?'

Anyway, could you honestly post what Sifu Chow's WC DVDs cover, how thorough they are, and their production quality? I've seen him on youtube and he does look way, way, way more promising, way more articulate on his subject, and he speaks English, but what are the specifics of his "total package" in the above areas? Thanks in advance.

[kngfu]

Dude, I got a few in trade a few years ago. Not sure I remember all the details or even which tapes I have, but I will look for them.