Learning Baguazhang

[kanik]

Baqua IS more complicated to grasp than Tai Chi, if you haven't studied Baqua yet you probably wouldn't realize it though. Neither one is simple by any means nor is one better than the other. Baqua has more forms, more weapons and is much more demanding physically than Tai Chi.

Granted, it is more physically exhausting. It does have more weapons. But that doesnt make it harder to learn. If you are doing proper tai chi, then it can be just as physically demanding, and it is so insanely detailed that its rediculous. Though it is very deceptive and the detail is often missed by the untrained eye.

[kingoftheforest]

I've been studying both for a while and I have to say that Bagua doesn't seem as complicated to me as Tai Chi is.

I guess different people grasp different concepts.....well differently.

[kanik]

I've been studying both for a while and I have to say that Bagua doesn't seem as complicated to me as Tai Chi is.

I guess different people grasp different concepts.....well differently.

Haha! Too right!

[TTEscrima]

Granted, it is more physically exhausting. It does have more weapons. But that doesnt make it harder to learn. If you are doing proper tai chi, then it can be just as physically demanding, and it is so insanely detailed that its rediculous. Though it is very deceptive and the detail is often missed by the untrained eye.

Baqua is every bit detailed as Tai Chi, the added transitions from high to low postures while spinning or changing direction are much more intricate. The hands don't do any less work but the waist and legs have to do more work.
Tai Chi has one set form that each student is taught, and most of the time they're all taught to do it the same way. Yin style Baqua has 12 animal forms and after learning the basic palm changes one of the 12 animal forms is then used to fit that training to the students physical and mental abilities thus no two Baqua students have the same interpretation of the art. It is indeed easier to get in the door of Baqua and grasp it's basic concepts but grasping the entire essence of the art is much more complicated that's why there are far fewer legitimate Baqua practitioners and teachers than Tai Chi proponents.

[TTEscrima]

I've been studying both for a while and I have to say that Bagua doesn't seem as complicated to me as Tai Chi is.

I guess different people grasp different concepts.....well differently.

I'll let Boar know your Baqua studies are too easy and uncomplicated for your level of comprehension.

[kingoftheforest]

I'll let Boar know you're Baqua studies are too easy and uncomplicated for your level of comprehension.

It's all relative (like both sides of your family) you took that out of context. I said it was easier than Tai Chi for me. That's like saying a volcano isn't as hot as the sun.

I think you been on this forum too long you got the "out of context" disease too.

[kanik]

Baqua is every bit detailed as Tai Chi, the added transitions from high to low postures while spinning or changing direction are much more intricate. The hands don't do any less work but the waist and legs have to do more work.
Tai Chi has one set form that each student is taught, and most of the time they're all taught to do it the same way. Yin style Baqua has 12 animal forms and after learning the basic palm changes one of the 12 animal forms is then used to fit that training to the students physical and mental abilities thus no two Baqua students have the same interpretation of the art. It is indeed easier to get in the door of Baqua and grasp it's basic concepts but grasping the entire essence of the art is much more complicated that's why there are far fewer legitimate Baqua practitioners and teachers than Tai Chi proponents.

Thats not the arguement. WHat I am saying is that Bagua is not MORE complex, or harder than Tai chi. I agree with kingoftheforrest in that it depends on the person for which either one is harder. But the reason why there are more Tai chi proponents, is because its more well known, and half of these fools dont even know Taiji-quan properly.

[TTEscrima]

Thats not the arguement. WHat I am saying is that Bagua is not MORE complex, or harder than Tai chi.

According to your earlier posts you're still learning the first form of Tai Chi and yet to embark upon learning Baqua at all, I'm speaking from over 4 decades experience in both systems. It's a well documented fact that Baqua is the longest path with the most intricacies of any of the internal arts. Yin Fu was documented as saying Baqua kept it's own secrets because the training was so long and it's essence so elusive. Most people think because they learned the mother palms or a couple of palm changes that's all there is to Baqua, that is incorrect. Baqua is the Daughter of Tai chi, it contains every principle and theory of Tai Chi and adds its own theories and principles, it would be impossible to contain Tai Chi without being as intricate as Tai Chi.

As for KOTF statements I'll bet you money by Monday he has a different opinion.

[kanik]

According to your earlier posts you're still learning the first form of Tai Chi and yet to embark upon learning Baqua at all, I'm speaking from over 4 decades experience in both systems. It's a well documented fact that Baqua is the longest path with the most intricacies of any of the internal arts. Yin Fu ws documented as saying Baqua kept it's own secrets because the training was so long and it's essence so elusive. Most people think because they learned the mother palms or a couple of palm changes that's all there is to Baqua, that is incorrect. Baqua is the Daughter of Tai chi, it contains every principle and theory of Tai Chi and adds its own theories and principles, it would be impossible to contain Tai Chi without being as intricate as Tai Chi.

As for KOTF statements I'll bet you money by Monday he has a different opinion.

True true true. I am not talking from experiance. I am talking purely from what my logic is telling me from the knowledge I have. It is my oppinion. No I havent learnt much of either style. But from what I know, and from my previous training in other styles. My oppinion stands.

[TTEscrima]

True true true. I am not talking from experiance. I am talking purely from what my logic is telling me from the knowledge I have. It is my oppinion. No I havent learnt much of either style. But from what I know, and from my previous training in other styles. My oppinion stands.

Just for grins and chuckles since your last post certainly clears things up, pray tell what other styles you've learned that enable you to decode these two arts and decide about their intricacies without any experience in them?

[kanik]

Just for grins and chuckles since your last post certainly clears things up, pray tell what other styles you've learned that enable you to decode these two arts and decide about their intricacies without any experience in them?

I am no master of the martiala rts, but I am no fool. So dont treat me like one. I will restate that my conclusion is based upon what I know on both styles, and what I here from others who have participated in both or either style. I have participated in 2 styles of kung fu asides from my current Taiji and Bagua, I have participated in 3 styles of karate, and two styles of korean martial arts (two if you count different TKD organisations as different styles). Along with boxing, and some weapon work. Some of this has been formally and some informally.

[jubaji]

the personality disorder is flairing up again

Just for grins and chuckles since your last post certainly clears things up, pray tell what other styles you've learned that enable you to decode these two arts and decide about their intricacies without any experience in them?

Oh, here we go again...

[TTEscrima]

I am no master of the martiala rts, but I am no fool. So dont treat me like one. I will restate that my conclusion is based upon what I know on both styles, and what I here from others who have participated in both or either style. I have participated in 2 styles of kung fu asides from my current Taiji and Bagua, I have participated in 3 styles of karate, and two styles of korean martial arts (two if you count different TKD organisations as different styles). Along with boxing, and some weapon work. Some of this has been formally and some informally.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, however since you brought up the fool comment, Sifu Adam Hsu has stated multiple times that anyone who tries to interpret the movements of an Internal art without a firm grasp of their principle, theory and application is a fool. At any rate enjoy your journey but you might try emptying that cup of knowledge because it seems full already.

[jubaji]

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[TTEscrima]

The Masters of Baqua on training.

"If you just dance the movements then all forms are easy, but it's not good Baqua. The easier a movement looks on the outside the more difficult it is to do correctly internally. The outside may be soft, may be hard, may be slow, may be quick-but the inside must be relaxed and calm."
Ch'eng T'ing-Hua

"If you do not understand how to look beyond the physical movements it will be difficult to discover the finer points of Baqua. Besides expecting students to master the shape of the movements, the principle of each of the movements should be clearly understood."Baqua is not a system of techniques as much as it is a conceptual framework which manifest change." Lo Te-Hsiu

"If you can't take the pain, go home and don't practice. Students must learn to develop power at the ming ching (obvious power) level before they can understand high levels of refined skill."
Hung I-Hsaing

"Trying to apply the study of of the external arts to the internal arts is like mixing Tea and water together and expecting the result to taste good. In reality it taste like neither; in practice you will become confused and become a specialist in neither."
Wang Shu-Chin

"A master utilizes inches to achieve great things, a beginner miles to achieve little. Thus the river cuts the stone, but the stone shapes the course of the river. For in truth there are no transitions in Bagua, the whole system is the embodiment of transition."
Fu Zhen Song

“Baqua takes the practitioner from a basic foundation to a high level without leaving gaps in the forms and movements and introduces all the subtleties and nuances which this art contains in a progressive manner so that they may be grasped.”
Li Zi Ming

“People who look pretty usually can't use their martial arts. People who can use their martial arts usually don't look pretty. If the form is correct, the qi and power will develop, if the form is not correct the practitioner will have no power. One must study and contemplate the theories and principles with great desire or all their efforts will be in vain.”
Xie Pei Qi


“I quickly realized that it would take a lifetime to become good at Baqua. The study of Baqua will help Tai Chi practitioners to better perform the turning of the waist. The hands and arms must work in excellent partnership with the waist. If one does not give the same diligence to the study of the classics as the forms their Baqua will not be correct.”
Sun Luc Tang

“It may seem easy to learn single change but it is difficult to master it done correctly and as the Baqua classics describe, the proper aphorism imploring one to learn to walk before learning to run is appropriate if one is to avoid confusion.”
Bow Sim Mark

“Without real usage nobody has the ability to correctly interpret Baqua's twisting movements.”
Liu Yun-Ch'iao

“Teaching should be careful and precise, emphasizing softness, but with correct shape. Softness alone will result in the inability to release power. Correct shape without softness will result in crude power and unnecessary exertion. Baqua is the art of sages and requires more diligent study than Taiji or Xing Yi.”
Lu-Ping

“In Baqua every inch of any movement is a self defense technique and the whole body is a fist.”
Lui Wan-Fu

"Unlike Taiji, in Baqua there is no central idea. Merely practicing is not understanding. Seek to understand the human ability. Study the classics diligently for the deep ideas. The result after a long time is that one is able to know Baqua."
Sun Lu Tang.