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  • #16
    Rou Quan in a nutshell, (because otherwise it deserves an entire thread to itself).

    The 108 Rou Quan was derived from movements from both Northern Shaolin, and Southern Shaolin.

    Wing Chun, was later derived from the section from Rou Quan's 108 posture set that teaches Tan Sao, Bong Sao, Pak Sao, Kao Sao, slapping hand, lifting palm, dragging,and rolling-hand methods.

    By the Song dynasty, the Rou Quan movements were contained within Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan, Xiao, Lao, Da Hong Quan and Pao Chui (All are sets that Shaolin is famous for).

    By the Qing Dynasty these movements had found their way to the Chen Village martial arts, and when Yang Tai Chi was developed it also contained the elements of the Rou Quan. Yang style was even NAMED Rou Quan before the name Tai Chi was used to describe it!!

    It's important to remember that Rou Quan derived it's movements from early Shaolin Rou Gong and Luohan Gong. Further, Shaolin Rou Gong and Luohan Gong were both derived by combining Buddhist breathing exercises with the movements from Tong Bei style.

    Pay attention now, this is important. During the Yuan/Ming dynasty overlap, the internal Animal sets were developed by Monk Jue Yuan, Bai Yu Feng, and Li Su who derived the 5 Animal styles from Rou Quan movements and Tong Bei. They used Rou Quan's 108 posture set, which is said to contain the closest interpretation of the original postures that eventually became known as the Dragon, Tiger, Snake, Crane, and Leopard, (the Shaolin Five Animals system).

    Notice they derived the 5 Animal systems (including Snake and Crane) directly from the pre existing sets within Rou Quan, NOT from watching animals fight, nor did they rely on transmission from 300 year old teachers to pass these "secrets".

    However, the Chens and the Yangs both created cover stories to hide their arts foundation in Rou Quan from others who would simply seek to learn Rou Quan instead.

    For anyone who really wants an in depth break down of the movements posture by posture, techniques by technique all the way forward through Yang style Tai Chi and backward through Tong Bei drop me a PM, I'm not interested in posting it for people to steal to try to further their ability to fool people into believing the lies about their system.
    Last edited by TTEscrima; 11-13-2008, 08:44 PM.


    • #17
      DeathMatch F.A.Q. by Badger North

      In light of recent events I thought perhaps the newb needed a refresher on internet challenge etiquette.

      So here is the intro to the Death match F.A.Q. I've got saved on my hard drive from the Willem de Thouars camp (there is much more, but this makes the point just fine).

      The Challenge FAQ 4.0 - Suitable for Calorie-Reduced and Low-Sodium


      "Sometimes he deserves a killin' and sometimes he doesn't deserve a killin' so if you're going to kill someone, make sure he deserves a killin' " - W. Hock Hochheim

      Whaddya say, people? Isn't it time we stopped giving our money to the lawyers and started giving it to the undertakers? Sure it is. It was good enough for our ancestors, and it should be good enough for us.

      And it never did them any harm - why, they lived in a halcyon age where teenagers were respectful and didn't dress oddly, and the sun was always shining except on the way to school when, inexplicably, three feet of snow fell overnight, and hills slanted against you both there and back. But I digress...

      1) Getting Started - the Challenge

      Of course, there are so many ways that this can happen. Rarely does it occur because of personal insults. Typically it is a response to someone refusing to see that the Sweet & Holy Light of the Universe shines out your ass.

      1a) Are You Talking to Me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME?

      Characterized by belligerence, posturing and a thin skin. The most common form of challenging, often engendered by the incorrect belief that everybody will agree with you and rally to your cause. Things escalate because nobody rallies to your side, and you look like an idiot with your ass dangling in the wind. Lots of smoke, but not much fire. Often, but not exclusively, the parvenu of someone who hasn't been posting long.

      1b) You Are So Full of Shit, I Mistook You for a Porta-Potty at
      Woodstock Characterized by utter disbelief at another's assertions. Utterly common point of view, but usually stays at the flame war level.

      1c) But Sokitumi Sensei Told Me Our Style Can Defeat any Outrageous Number of Armed Attackers

      People resent having their illusions shattered, or even questioned -

      more so when that belief has been propped up by an old man with a thick accent. It probably tugs at some psychological level untapped since childhood, when Santa's sleigh disappeared over the Atlantic, the Sandman was arrested for throwing grit in children's eyes, and ice cream cones weren't filled to the bottom.

      2) Various Levels of Understanding the Niceties of Challenges

      Okay, so most universities don't offer credit in Code Duello anymore (even as an elective! Why, it makes me furious I can tell you... but I digress), and can therefore be excused for not having all the details down. We'll just hit the high points.

      2a) If You Accept my Challenge, Can I Sleep on Your Couch?

      All onuses are on the challenger to cover travel costs, find

      accommodations, propose acceptable limitations, etc. All the

      challenged has to do is either accept or refuse the challenge,

      although historically choice of weapons, time and location were

      usually up to the challenged. It is somewhat unsporting to deny a challenge out of hand, but the challenged is not obligated to accept the offer.

      Challenges - the Denouement

      There are few ways that challenges finish, and typically they are (as Chas might say) like being pecked to death by ducks. Slow, painful, humiliating, and kinda annoying, frankly.

      4a) Reality Bites

      The combatants meet, fight. Can anybody remember where this has actually happened? Anybody? All I can hear is the sound of crickets... Hello? Is this thing on? I know, I know,
      I'm asking somebody to admit to possibly committing a felony, but help me out here.

      5) Instructions to Spectators

      There are two distinct phases here: before the challenge, and at the challenge.

      Before the challenge, when things are being openly debated in this grand forum, input from spectators is necessary to remind the participants that somebody cares. As Oscar Wilde said, "the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." Show them you care with a steady stream of comments - actual content is not obligatory. In fact, it could be a distraction to the fighters.

      They're busy working themselves into a frenzy, and you're asking logical, thoughtful questions. Well, knock it off!

      At the challenge is a different matter all together. Seeing how

      challenge fights are, well, illegal, perhaps you shouldn't make a

      scene in case it is being videotaped. Wear clothing you don't mind burning when it is all over. Do not hold up signs that say "John 3:14" and avoid bringing large foam-rubber hands inscribed with "Kick Him in the Groin" or "Choke Him Unconscious".

      Don't distract the participants. They have enough on their minds without a schmoe like you yelling, "your shoelace is undone." Polite golf-tournament clapping perhaps would be most appropriate. For a particularly spectacular technique or graphic injury a demure "My Goodness!" or "Here, here! Good show!" is the sign of a considerate spectator.

      6) Location, Location, Location

      Where to have your challenge match is as important as who to

      challenge, and what to challenge them about. In fact, the location of the intended match has managed to spike several RMA challenges before they ever made it to the starting line (Tim & Gi, Carl & Gi, Emin & Royce).

      Therefore, in the interest of speeding these things along, the

      official RMA challenge facility is declared to be Gichoke's basement.

      He's promised to sweep up a bit before you get there, honest.

      Alternate location is Trav's backyard.

      A third alternative is the random urban setting, in case neither of the previously listed venues is available. A two square block area is marked out on a map. The challenger attacks from surprise, giving the defender an affirmative defense with the authorities if he prevails.

      7) Deathmatches

      So many of us are realizing what the poets have known for a long time: namely, chicks dig guys they think are "sensitive." This, of course, explains the popularity of Tai Chi. The other thing that the poets had right is that a tragic death earns the memory of you a certain immortality. In recognition of that, the death match has a certain appeal in the minds of some.

      Really, the rules for a death match aren't all that different from
      your regular challenge. Okay, so you are trying to kill your opponent

      - that's a pretty big difference - but otherwise the above information

      applies. As for etiquette, it is the hallmark of a courteous fighter that before offering or accepting a fight to the death, you really should let everybody know what your win/loss record is in death matches.

      The only other point is just a suggestion: be kind to the viewing audience and agree to the use of weapons in your death match. People are busy these days and won't be able to devote the time necessary to watch you and your opponent bludgeon each other to death with your fists. When choosing a weapon note that bigger is better, with one exception - "serrations." A fight to the death between two men armed
      with grapefruit spoons will grant you a legacy that will last a

      If you can't think of anything, Jeff/Batman has suggested bowling balls. No, I don't understand either - must be a Texas thing.

      And the thought occurs to me that any deathmatch that arises between the pro-gun and anti-gun factions will be entertaining, definitive,

      one-sided and mercifully brief.

      8) The Dress Code

      But what is considered the "must-have" outfit for Challenge Matches?

      A matter of some debate, I admit. Speedos! say some. Street clothes!

      say others. Flowing sequined robes with a big Carmen Miranda fruit

      hat! say a merciful few. Perhaps the less said the better, other than

      it should be appropriate to the challenge (no cheating and wearing a suit of armour unless that was part of the thread that provoked the challenge). The only definite rule is for shrouds: white sheets only, please, and do not steal Mom's best sheets.

      9) Prizes, Prizes, Prizes

      Amazingly, there's more awaiting the successful duellist other than

      bragging rights and possible legal action. Tell 'em what he's won, Johnny!

      You will receive a hand-made shillelagh from Kirk Lawson, cookies

      lovingly baked by Karen Nagai, and the much-coveted Brilliant Martial

      Sage Unrivalled Under Heaven certificate. How could anyone resist

      such wondrous encouragements? Now get out there and Fight! Fight!


      10) The RMA Code Duello

      Now, as to the actual rules of the challenge.

      i) All challenges shall involve only the two principal members of the

      discussion that precipitated the challenge. In the event that a

      thread on surviving multiple attackers sparked the challenge, all will

      convene in a small town bar, where the patrons will be encouraged to

      provide complementary boxing lessons.

      ii) All challengers will be accompanied by a second. However, since

      most of you people don't have any friends, scratch that.

      iii) In the unlikely event that a challenge arises from a "How to

      defend against a dog" thread, suitable dogs will be acquired from the

      local pound, and outfitted with the usual lasers, knives and other

      digressions that abound in such threads.

      iv) The match will not be considered to be in progress until one or

      both participants have lost an eye. Until that point, the challenge

      will be considered to be "all fun and games."

      v) A winner will be automatically declared if one of the participants

      is unconscious, incapacitated, dead (see section 6), is missing one or

      more limbs, says 'Uncle', or is otherwise unable to continue. At no

      point may a fighter declare that the other fighter was correct in his

      or her RMA assertions, as the opportunity for adult behaviour is long

      since past (if it ever really existed in the first place).

      vi) All challengers are to refrain from eating the corpse of their

      opponent, unless the thread that provoked the challenge had to deal

      with the martial capabilities of biting, or the winner is a silat

      practitioner. If the latter, bring a barbeque and peanut sauce.

      vii) If a referee is to officiate at the match, the position must be

      filled by a Catholic priest, Irish, preferably named Father

      O'Flanagan. This is doubly important if the challenge arose from the

      ubiquitous "Christianity in the MA" thread.

      viii) Nobody's mom is allowed in.

      ix) Please note that the judicial system does not recognize Trial by

      Combat anymore. ...Frickin' lawyers gone and spoiled everything.

      x) Challenges involving tai chi practitioners will take place at full


      xi) All participants are to govern their actions with strict attention

      to courtesy and decorum as... Cough, cough... Okay, I know I'm not

      fooling anybody with this one.

      xii) If the "Delayed Death Touch" is used, the impending time of death

      must be announced in advance - much like calling your shot in pool.

      Both participants must then sit in chairs until the appointed time. A

      death occurring within 10 minutes of the agreed-upon time will

      constitute a victory.

      xiii) In the event that somebody is challenged to enter a tournament

      of a style different from their own, they will be governed by the

      rules common to the tournaments they are used to. Eskrimadors, leave

      your knives at the door when you enter the TKD tournament. TKDers,

      just stay away from the Vale Tudo tournament.

      xiv) Video and merchandising rights must be claimed by

      non-participants only. The only permissible forms of merchandise

      include: t-shirts, posters, and commemorative drinking glasses. Those

      figurines with the big, bobbling heads are strictly forbidden.

      xv) Any challenger wishing his corpse shipped to his preferred place

      of burial must provide sufficient funds for shipment by bus before the

      challenge begins.

      xvi) Any casualties not claimed by relatives 5 business days after the

      challenge will be fed to the creatures that dwell in the dank pit in

      Gi's basement.

      xvii) Any bets must be paid up within 30 days of the RMA announcement

      of the completion of the challenge.

      11) The Official RMA Deathmatch Challenge Application Form

      Okay folks, print it out, photocopy it a zillion times and send it out to everyone you know.


      __ Sir

      __ Ma'am

      __ Troll

      __ Shit for Brains

      __ Esteemed Colleague

      __ Randomly Chosen Opponent

      Due to your recent rec.martial-arts postings regarding...

      __ knives

      __ my mother

      __ traditional arts

      __ dogs (please indicate here __ if lasers are involved)

      __ left/right wing politics

      __ sport vs. street

      __ grappling vs. striking

      __ length vs. width

      __ crotchless leather mini-hakamas

      And in the tradition of fighting arts since the dawn of time, except

      for certain masters trotted out by people insisting that martial arts

      were never intended for anything but self-discipline, I demand you

      meet me in Gichoke's dank basement for...

      __ a challenge match

      __ a deathmatch

      __ hot man/man action

      Please note that as I train in...

      __ Ninjitsu

      __ Greenoch

      __ An art inferior to the two mentioned above

      ...My victory is assured.


      __ Sensei

      __ Sifu

      __ Master

      __ Vogon Diplomatic Corp Commander

      (insert last name)

      In conclusion, in the hustle and bustle of everyday life it can often

      slip our minds that threats of violence over the Internet do not

      solely belong to creepy guys who drive white vans slowly and

      erratically in school districts. We *all* have a responsibility to be

      as belligerent and fractious as possible to those around us. Let us

      not slough off our duties onto the poorly-socialized among us but

      instead take comfort in knowing that violence is truly the world's

      only universal language.
      Last edited by TTEscrima; 11-13-2008, 08:38 PM.


      • #18
        Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
        I swear I addressed this issue once, Hmmmm.

        It's not wise to pick up a subject that I have already warned people about.
        Well... you must at least admit that last bit was funny as hell.

        In all honesty I'd love to meet some of the folks here for some friendly sparring or forms!

        I see this stuff as less like being called out and MORE like a warm and hospitable INVITATION to explore the diversity in the arts.

        And if someone REALLY wants to send his Ninja's on a secret mission to storm a dojo in a far away land... I live in the Redwoods of California at the mouth of the Mad River...

        Just for fun! You guys are hysterical but EF has put his foot down. I suppose it's time to move on...



        • #19
          I invite anyone to come visit anytime.

          I have an open door policy.

          enough said on this.


          • #20
            Originally posted by DaleDugas View Post
            I invite anyone to come visit anytime.

            I have an open door policy.

            enough said on this.
            You earned yourself some negative rep. LOL


            • #21
              Can't spell "slaughter" without LAUGHTER!

              Originally posted by Hardball View Post
              You earned yourself some negative rep. LOL

              Oooooh That'll hurt! LMAO

              Good one HB! You kill me! This thread just keeps getting better and better.

              Yeah! Thanks everyone! For what it's worth, I'm having fun! It's nice to smile!
              (seriously, I appreciate it!)


              • #22
                Originally posted by DaleDugas View Post
                I invite anyone to come visit anytime.

                I have an open door policy.

                enough said on this.

                Yeah, that's awesome and respectable. Good public image. The best stuff I was ever exposed to was behind locked doors. We got hurt but the price was worth admission into the exclusive CQC group.

                We never had to throw a body overboard but we joked about it...