Kuntaw (KUNE tao)???

[Tant01]

Chinese influence on SE asian SILAT (fighting) styles is about as close as I've been to anything like Kong-Fu. The similarities to animal styles of shaolin are there if you look. Tiger and dragon are common names for the "fist" (WAY)

I'm looking for anything historical to link silat (kuntao) to Kung fu.

Looking to expose grappling and rapid limb destructions (empty hand) in kung fu. It's GOT to be there because GRAPPLING is still fighting.

Anyone?

Thanks kindly.

[Uke]

I'm pretty sure you know this already Tant01 but chin na is the term that chinese systems use to refer to the grabbing and seizing techniques. Chin na is found in nearly all chinese systems as it is just the grappling aspect.

I've seen it myself in mantis, crane, bak mei, fu jow pai, eagle claw, hung ga and wing chun.

Perhaps if you research the history of chin na you'll find the answers you're looking for.

[Tant01]

Not quite what I was looking for...

....Perhaps.

[TTEscrima]

Willem Reeders system is a great lineage to investigate to trace some of these similarities. The movements of Baqua and Northern Mantis seem to be scattered throughout Kuntao. I like the way the American Kuntao guys break it down by stating Kuntao is the CMA's that existed in Indonesia prior to WWll. Take a look at this video examining the hand work from Kuntao.

YouTube - Kuntao Hand Work (Rick Hernandez)

Baqua is CHOCK FULL of standing arm breaks BTW.

[Uke]

Looking to expose grappling and rapid limb destructions (empty hand) in kung fu.

Judging by what you wrote in the quote chin na is exactly what you're looking for.

Seems to me that you just have to find out how those techniques migrated to Indonesia, and what system was the vehicle. Chin na is a general term, but researching it may shed light on its development and how it spread.

My bet says its from southern chinese influence.

[Garland]

Mark Wiley's books on Filipino Martial Culture may be a good start...coupled with Don Dreager's works on Indonesian styles.

[TTEscrima]

Looking to expose grappling and rapid limb destructions (empty hand) in kung fu.

The Demoniac school of Beggar/Wanderer style is the closest thing to the animistic as well as the application phases of KunTao. It's proponents were known to have traveled extensively outside of China and many were known to be Muslim. They're also the source of the the Heretical branch of Taoism, (the "Amulet Sect") which is best known for it's Lung Hu (Dragon/Tiger Style). Side note they're also the sect credited with travel to Japan and teaching the skills that became known as Ninjutsu.

[Tant01]

Hmmm...

The Demoniac school of Beggar/Wanderer style is the closest thing to the animistic as well as the application phases of KunTao. It's proponents were known to have traveled extensively outside of China and many were known to be Muslim. They're also the source of the the Heretical branch of Taoism, (the "Amulet Sect") which is best known for it's Lung Hu (Dragon/Tiger Style). Side note they're also the sect credited with travel to Japan and teaching the skills that became known as Ninjutsu.

Sounds like a "sea story" to me?

[kingoftheforest]

Sounds like a "sea story" to me?

You know what the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story is?

[Tant01]

"""???"""

You know what the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story is?

.............?

[kingoftheforest]

A fairy tale starts with once apon a time, and a sea story starts with


"this ain't no s__t!"

[TTEscrima]

Hmmm, I could post about a 5 page dissertation tracing these techniques from the Demoniac school to the animistic systems but it would obviously be a massive waste of my time to trace the lineage of the techniques and the men who helped spread them.

[Tant01]

Pun intended...

Hmmm, I could post about a 5 page dissertation tracing these techniques from the Demoniac school to the animistic systems but it would obviously be a massive waste of my time to trace the lineage of the techniques and the men who helped spread them.

My subtle one liner wasn't intended to call it BS... I'm sure there were many SEA faring Chinese traders or merchants (or PIRATES) transplanting various styles and methods.

The Kuntao hands form vid was interesting but I know so little about it the only parts that looked remotely familiar I might call power assisted (cutting)

I never really SEE much in forms. I think that is partly intentional by the creators of the forms.

I'd like to read more about the techniques from the Demoniac school...

If you care to indulge?

[TTEscrima]

My subtle one liner wasn't intended to call it BS... I'm sure there were many SEA faring Chinese traders or merchants (or PIRATES) transplanting various styles and methods.

The Kuntao hands form vid was interesting but I know so little about it the only parts that looked remotely familiar I might call power assisted (cutting)

I never really SEE much in forms. I think that is partly intentional by the creators of the forms.

I'd like to read more about the techniques from the Demoniac school...

If you care to indulge?

I figured you might be making Pirate references, but I wasn't sure.

If you have a tough time "reading" forms you should get a copy of James Keatings Conceptual Gold series, Boar swears they're the most valuable tapes a martial artist can own.

It'll take me awhile to put together a piece on the Demoniac influences but in the meantime you ought to read the 3 articles Boar posted in the "Tactical Toolbox" board on his forum:

Evolution of the Internal arts Part 1
Evolution of the Internal arts Part 2
Evolution of Chen Style Taiji

Those will take you from the warring states period up to current times and prepare you to follow the techniques I'll use to illustrate the concepts.

That'll give me time to raid Boars library and pick his brain for some of the finer details.

[Tom Yum]

Chinese Influenced SEA Arts

Kuntao literally translated from the Hokkien-Chinese dialect means way of the fist (quan dao for Mandarin speakers). I believe the art is primarly based in the Phillipines. I'm certain the influence of Chinese arts have also spread west of the Phillipines into Indonesia as well.

I would assume the Pukulan Cjimande system (Indonesian silat) is heavily influenced by southern Chinese gong fu as well.

YouTube - Pukulan Cimande Pusaka - Secrets of the Chosen Few

I was introduced to the style years ago from a student who said he studied under William Sanders. Unfortunately, its one of those styles that you'd have to travel far to learn, since the style isn't that popular or available.