MMA sport fighting and Kung Fu combative.

By the way Kung Fu does have different grappling in it, here is just a brief excample, not to mention the Praying mantist style bagua, eagle claw, Monkey style etc etc etc

YouTube - Shuaijiao technique by Master Wang Wenyong

YouTube - Shuai Jiao

here is some more interesting techniques

YouTube - Qin Na ?? - Yue Jia San Shou

YouTube - Chin Na 8 - Muscle Grabbing

here is a trapping seizing technique in Seven Star Mantis that would change the whole show in MMA or boxing. This one techniqe is so effective that i am surprised I don't see more MMA fighters using it. If done right you can also off balance the opponent right to the side and expose his ribs or back of the head etc.

YouTube - 7 Star Mantis Kung Fu: Trapping and Seizing Part 1 of 2

[sunwukung]

It seems like disecting MMA video is about as close as you'll ever get to anything like real combat...

I hate to say it KFM, I've tried to give you opportunities to redeem yourself, but Tant01 really has hit it on the head.

[Tant01]

Well....

Hello again, I am hoping that all can agree that MMA sport type fighting in a ring with rules is very different than Kung Fu combative survival fighting. I just want to post a few examples of what i am talking about watch these videos and see it from a sport perspective and then a combative one.

YouTube - Rickson Gracie vs. Koichiro Kimura (fight and backstages)

at,

0:18-0:25 a kung fu fighter would quickly kick the groin and then strike the eyes

0:32 a kung fu fighter would attack the groin area in this opening.

0:44 if a Kung Fu man was in the Gracie position he would claw the face , eyes etc, and use his left and right hand for such attacks, and twisting of the neck, no playing on the ground

1:16 to the end of the fight if a kung fu fighter was in the gracie position the opponent would be very seriously hurt kin real combat. His head neck spine, and other vital areas in the back of the neck were very exposed. A dangerous position for any man to be in.

Heres another one,

YouTube - Royce G. vs Gerard G.

4;21, a Kung Fu fighter would have shifted his left leg to the right side and offset the balance of Gracies attack causing him to fall to the ground, Gracie lifted his right leg therby supporting his whole body with his back leg. The other fighter was not in a good stance for such a defense. Gracies leg could have also been grabbed just before he tried the shoot in.

4:23, as Gracie shoots in a kung fu man would have instantly attacked the face and eyes here, or the neck.

4:32 a Kung Fu fighter would have clawed his face right here and fish hooked with the left hand from behind, catching the inside eyelids or the mouth and torquing back

4:45 a kung fu man would have kneed gracie very hard upward and into the groin area here also in 4:52 the same move

4:53 a kung fu man would have used his right arm to wrap inside of gracies head locking the jaw or inside pf the lip and eyelids and torquing up and back. This is a very dangerous move and can hurt the neck .

5:06 to 5:19 a kung fu fighter would have clawed gracies face very quickly and attacked the throat and neck.

......

....

It seems like disecting MMA video is about as close as you'll ever get to anything like real combat...

That's good kong-fu... you'll never lose a fight! You get to stay pretty and keep all your teeth. No doctor or hospital bills... You are a real "Master" TC...


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Let me get this straight... the moderators are cracking down on personal insults but I can still express disgust using the "groan" button right? Is that the pc way to tell someone their thread sucks these days?

You must tell exactly what it is you disagree with or else it really doesn't mean anything. Be specific in your attacks and your disgust.

...4) Are you suggesting then that the sole answer to grappling at the disposal of the 'kung fu man' is grabbing the groin or gouging the eyes? Is it not possible that outside the ring these same sporting athletes develop means to combat those very techniques - which amount to very few.

No, not at all. I was just pointing out some vert fast and basic techniques. In the MMA fights we se in sport fighting, it should be obvious that the groina dneyes and throat , joints fingers etc etc and other vital points are exposed often. this is most likely because they are not afraid of having these areas attacked, because it is only sport fighting. All i want everyone to agree on is that sport fighting in the ultimate fighter type TV situations is not even close to "ULTIMATE" fighting. And that Kung Fu has techniques that attack such areas often in combat. I have kicked men in the groin before and I as many others have developed speed in the front snap kick, front thrust kick, or side snap kick. When a man gets hit right here he drops. I have seen this and it clearly works. I am by no means saying these are the only techniques to use, there are hundreds of thousands of techniques and more i am sure in Kung Fu styles.

...5) Isn't the purpose of training in a style to ultimately be free of stylistic restrictions, to be able to fight naturally in all ranges, be that on the ground, close quarters or long range striking distance? With that in mind, wouldn't it be simpler to augment one's training with grappling, rather than relying on techniques you cannot test in the situation they will be required?

But yI have said that Kung Fu does have ground fighting and grappling and many other answers to different situation. And alot of new techniques can be applied that are done from a standing position on the ground. There is a massive resouce for the creative and studious kung fu student. But I can also learn jujitsu and Ninjitsu etc and incorporate some of their techniques into my combat . Except as I said before when I learn jujitsu I try to combine kung fu with it, for even faster escapes and attacks. I know some hate when I say that, but that is what I do.

...6)The two combatants here are able to test and develop their techniques against a live and non-compliant opponent. Unless you regularly gouge or kick your partners in the groin, how can you effectively test the usefulness of these techniques. I ask this because I have seen Vale Tudo matches where there has been groin striking and face clawing - and it didn't work.

First of all, show me the clips of such fights/

Second, Was one of the fighters a Kung Fu fighter?, and did he take stances in combat?

Third, I doubt it, but show me

Fourth are you talking about these type of fights that look exactly like the ultimate fighter and many other MMA fights? Check the clip below,

YouTube - Vale Tudo MMA Martial Arts

In this fight above there are so many openings and vital areas exposed it is a classic example of what I am talking about. I can point all of them out if you want me to.

...If you found yourself in a life or death situation that called for the use of these techniques that you were unable to realistically test in a training situation, and they didn't work - what then? Is it not better to train and develop those techniques that you CAN test in a training scenario, wouldn't they be ultimately more reliable?

Any technique that is sound will work if you practice it and hopefully master it. And many other techniques have long history behind them and have been used in actual war combat in the past. Just read about some of the Kung Fu styles and the combat usefulness of such things. That is another reason that traditional Kung Fu has advantages, it has been tried and tested in many situations. I am not talking about sparring tournaments I am talking about real life and death situations.

But I do not have to have a real knife attack to know how to defend against a knife attack. If the practice is done fast and powerful that can help also. We also do realistically test all techniques. This is our two man application section of the class. One person attacks , slower at first then faster and as they practice this develops body coordination, speed timing, technique .

[Sagacious Lu]

Let me get this straight... the moderators are cracking down on personal insults but I can still express disgust using the "groan" button right? Is that the pc way to tell someone their thread sucks these days?

[sunwukung]

Now, let the mockery and attacks begin. Or let the full agreement be stated.

OK, I am neither mocking you, nor agreeing with you - a third option.

1)Yes, I agree, street fighting is a very different beast to MMA. But not that different.

2)Do you not think it is rather easy to dissect videos and say what one could do? Aren't all real fights littered with points where you might have done something else? This is the point with 'real fighting', it is not an ideal situation.There are many things each fighter could have done throughout the bout. In the opening seconds, one could have sidestepped the other and glass-jawed the other, or perhaps one might have been tripped and broke their neck. It's not a matter of what might have happened, but what did.

3)Whereas it is easy to see what each man was capable of doing in these fights, it is becoming notoriously difficult to find any way of demonstrating what a 'kung fu man' could do in the same situation. We can pose photos, or set up drills with compliant opponents, but given the vast range of resources at our disposal on the internet - from home videos of backyard brawls, mobile phone footage of riots and street fights - we cannot find video footage of the sort of situations you are describing.

4) Are you suggesting then that the sole answer to grappling at the disposal of the 'kung fu man' is grabbing the groin or gouging the eyes? Is it not possible that outside the ring these same sporting athletes develop means to combat those very techniques - which amount to very few.

5) Isn't the purpose of training in a style to ultimately be free of stylistic restrictions, to be able to fight naturally in all ranges, be that on the ground, close quarters or long range striking distance? With that in mind, wouldn't it be simpler to augment one's training with grappling, rather than relying on techniques you cannot test in the situation they will be required?

6)The two combatants here are able to test and develop their techniques against a live and non-compliant opponent. Unless you regularly gouge or kick your partners in the groin, how can you effectively test the usefulness of these techniques. I ask this because I have seen Vale Tudo matches where there has been groin striking and face clawing - and it didn't work.

If you found yourself in a life or death situation that called for the use of these techniques that you were unable to realistically test in a training situation, and they didn't work - what then? Is it not better to train and develop those techniques that you CAN test in a training scenario, wouldn't they be ultimately more reliable?

[jubaji]

.....................................

Just a matter of time, dead horse.

Yes, time heals many wounds. But don't pick the scabs.

[jubaji]

Just a matter of time, dead horse.

bye..........

Hello, and goodby

[jubaji]

bye..........

Hello again, I am hoping that all can agree that MMA sport type fighting in a ring with rules is very different than Kung Fu combative survival fighting. I just want to post a few examples of what i am talking about watch these videos and see it from a sport perspective and then a combative one.

YouTube - Rickson Gracie vs. Koichiro Kimura (fight and backstages)

at,

0:18-0:25 a kung fu fighter would quickly kick the groin and then strike the eyes

0:32 a kung fu fighter would attack the groin area in this opening.

0:44 if a Kung Fu man was in the Gracie position he would claw the face , eyes etc, and use his left and right hand for such attacks, and twisting of the neck, no playing on the ground

1:16 to the end of the fight if a kung fu fighter was in the gracie position the opponent would be very seriously hurt kin real combat. His head neck spine, and other vital areas in the back of the neck were very exposed. A dangerous position for any man to be in.

Heres another one,

YouTube - Royce G. vs Gerard G.

4;21, a Kung Fu fighter would have shifted his left leg to the right side and offset the balance of Gracies attack causing him to fall to the ground, Gracie lifted his right leg therby supporting his whole body with his back leg. The other fighter was not in a good stance for such a defense. Gracies leg could have also been grabbed just before he tried the shoot in.

4:23, as Gracie shoots in a kung fu man would have instantly attacked the face and eyes here, or the neck.

4:32 a Kung Fu fighter would have clawed his face right here and fish hooked with the left hand from behind, catching the inside eyelids or the mouth and torquing back

4:45 a kung fu man would have kneed gracie very hard upward and into the groin area here also in 4:52 the same move

4:53 a kung fu man would have used his right arm to wrap inside of gracies head locking the jaw or inside pf the lip and eyelids and torquing up and back. This is a very dangerous move and can hurt the neck .

5:06 to 5:19 a kung fu fighter would have clawed gracies face very quickly and attacked the throat and neck.

5:15-19 if gracie was a kung fu man there you can see how he puts his hands on the face of the opponent, this would have been very dangerous for the opponent if it was a kung fu combat technique, his eyes and face would be clawed and gouged. Look at 5:17 Gracie even has his hands on the face of the opponent. This is the difference of sport to combat fighting, right there. But even in the sport fighting we see when gracie puts his fingers in the eyes of the opponent the opponent changes position allowing gracie to do a different technique.

5:37 -49 if gracie was a kung fu fighter in combat there the opponent would have many attacks to his face back of his spine, neck and other vital areas.

There are many other techniques that can be done for such fighting, but I was just pinpointing some basic defenses.

I am also by no means trying to say that these fighters are not good fighters, they are, but I am just trying to show the different mindset of combative fighting and sport fighting. This really should be a easy thing to agree with. I know some will say, "But you cannot do those things from the positions they are in ete". But look again, closely with the combative survival mindset and see what I am talking about.

Ok, thats good for now. I hope to post more if needed to show this point.

Now, let the mockery and attacks begin. Or let the full agreement be stated.

Jubaji, you have no need to comment. Your response is already expected.