Why I don't practice BJJ

[pstevens]

I'm not saying that kung fu practitioners can't fight without using these lethal strikes. What I am say is that if needed they can use them. It would be like telling a jiu jitsu stylist that he can't use a rear naked choke or an arm bar when fighting. .

Actually it’s not like that at all. BJJers are free to use the rear naked choke, just as kung-fu folk are allowed to use their kicks, punches, etc… yet, the BJJ person is able to impose his will most of the time. Now, imagine if illegal techniques were allowed? Who would benefit more, the person who usually wins or the one who usually loses?

ALOT of the techniques used in kung fu are to vital areas such as the throat, temple, eyes, and groin. I'm not going to go for those areas specifically but its nice to know that I have that option if need be..

In self-defense BJJ and grappling, fish hooking, eye gouging, hair pulling, groin attacks and other illegal tactics are quite common. Grapplers would love to use these as well, but they don’t need them to compete.

And yes kung fu stylists can get beat on the streets, I'm not saying they can't. But once again I go back to my arguement that it's the fighters skill not the art he practices that makes the fighter.

I agree to some extent. I mean you take a 250 lb athlete and teach him wushu and he’ll probably still defeat a 130 lb skinny grappler most of the time; albeit using his natural attributes rather than the style. However, all things considered; the “style” or delivery system does make an impact. This is why you have documented accounts of jiu-jitsu men like Yuko Tani, a Fusen-Ryu Jiu-jitsu stylist who defeated 40 to 50 boxers and wrestlers a week while working at William Bankier’s strongman show in England in the year 1900. Tani was a very small man, standing only 5 feet tall and weighting 125 lbs, yet he remained undefeated for years against all comers using the jiu-jitsu that would eventually become BJJ.

The same can be said of Maeda, the predecessor of Gracie Jiu-jitsu. Maeda was also a man of small stature, yet he was able to defeat men in different weight classes around the world. Also, more recently, Yuki Nakai, was seen in the film “Choke” to reach the finals after defeating top kick boxers and fighters in a no-weight limit tournament in Japan. Nakai weighed at only 130 lbs and used grappling to defeat men who weighed over 200 lbs!

These examples of overcoming extreme disadvantages are quite common in BJJ. Yet, they don’t exist as often outside. That, my friend, says a lot about the system of BJJ.

[jmd161]

I'm not saying that kung fu practitioners can't fight without using these lethal strikes. What I am saying is that if needed they can use them. It would be like telling a jujitsu stylist that he can't use a rear naked choke or an arm bar when fighting. A LOT of the techniques used in kung fu are to vital areas such as the throat, temple, eyes, and groin. I'm not going to go for those areas specifically but its nice to know that I have that option if need be. In sporting events those targets are not allowed but in real life they are allowed since there are no rules. That's why kung fu stylists will get beat in the ring but stand a better chance on the street. And yes kung fu stylists can get beat on the streets, I'm not saying they can't. But once again I go back to my arguments that it's the fighters skill not the art he practices that makes the fighter.

There are many techniques if not thousands taught within the average kung fu style. To take away throat, eye, and groin strikes still leaves hundreds to choose from. The reason kung fu stylist get beat in the ring and in the streets as well, is because many never take time to go past basic drills and forms work. Basic drills are just that Basic! There is a lot more to work and the average kung fu class does not address the rest.

Also, the student them self needs to go out and attempt to work what they are learning. You can go to any MMA gym and find guys willing to exchange with you on a friendly level. Put on the gloves and try some of your so called techniques and see, if you can in fact pull any off.

jeff

[JadeDragon]

Which makes them conveniently unverifiable, so jokers like tigerclown (and...) can claim any silly thing he wants.

And that can be said for grapplers as well. So no matter what I say you'll find some excuse to say whatever you want.

[jubaji]

I guess where ever fights occur outside of sporting events such as bars, nightclubs, alley ways, parties, etc......

Which makes them conveniently unverifiable, so jokers like tigerclown (and...) can claim any silly thing he wants.

[pstevens]

I'm really starting to question the level of experience and skill of some of the so called experienced kung fu stylist on this forum. They make the same argument as a novice kung fu stylist. We are supposed to believe They can pull off killer techniques, when they can't even fight without striking the throat, eyes or groin?

This is what I mean about people trying to argue for kung fu and making it look even more foolish. To say you can't fight without striking those areas shows that this person has no experience in using their kung fu as well as actual fighting experience. I agree kung fu was not created for sport, but real combat, but not every strike within kung fu are "The Deadly" like many kung fu stylist want you to believe. I'll help your argument by admitting that the rules within MMA eliminate many techniques that kung fu favor, but that doesn't mean the kung fu stylist is now weaponless.

What it does show is that too many of you rely on just a handful of so called finishing techniques that you have never even attempted, to base your fighting off. This is the biggest problem with kung fu people... thinking they can pull off throat strikes, eye pokes and groin attacks in a combat situation, when they can't even throw a proper punch in a sport situation. Too many believe they can win with techniques they've never tried, and find out when they reach for these same techniques they aren't nearly as easy to pull off as they thought.


jeff

Jeff,

You’ve hit the nail on the coffin. I think if kung-fu practitioners exhibited the kind of attitude and thinking you display, they would be helping their cause further. Thank for the great insight!

Actually, the idea of “illegal” and “deadly” techniques has been addressed by BJJers for some time. The answer to this problem lies within BJJ’s core principle; positional dominance. In BJJ, positional dominance is everything. For when you can control your opponent’s position and dominate him, it negates most of his momentum, space and ability to effectively hurt you.

For instance, let’s say I’m faced with someone who wants to eye gouge me. To reach my eyes, he needs to be within striking range; which also happens to be the range where I can take him down. The moment he gets into range to eye gouge, I change levels and go for the takedown and attain mount or side control. However, let’s say he waits for the counter attack. I close the distance and change levels, taking way his angle to eye gouge; I get the takedown anyway.

From underneath mount or side control, the eye gouger has very little opportunity or space to launch his attack. But the real question is, “who is in a better position to launch their attack; the person who is in control or the one who has lost it?” But suppose he is able to eye gouge me from the bottom position… From my superior position, I would just inflict more pain and punishment in retaliation. In any case, I highly doubt this would be the case.

If you’ve never been under a good mount or side control (especially in an MMA context) you’re at the mercy of the person on top. Not only are you suffocating and depleting energy, you’re taking heavy shots. When you’re taking massive blows from the top where he has gravity on his side, are you really going go for the eye gouge, phoenix eye fist to the temple, pressure point attack, etc?… Very unlikely. If you do, you’re a dead man. Your first objective should be to defend your position, then find a way out.

Can deadly and illegal techniques have an impact in a fight? Yes, of course they can change things… But their chances of success are minimal when faced with a system designed to neutralize their effectiveness.

[JadeDragon]

Ok, so where are all these kungfu folks beating the snot out of everyone outside of sport?

I guess where ever fights occur outside of sporting events such as bars, nightclubs, alley ways, parties, etc.....

I'm really starting to question the level of experience and skill of some of the so called experienced kung fu stylist on this forum. They make the same argument as a novice kung fu stylist. We are supposed to believe They can pull off killer techniques, when they can't even fight without striking the throat, eyes or groin?

This is what I mean about people trying to argue for kung fu and making it look even more foolish. To say you can't fight without striking those areas shows that this person has no experience in using their kung fu as well as actual fighting experience. I agree kung fu was not created for sport, but real combat, but not every strike within kung fu are "The Deadly" like many kung fu stylist want you to believe. I'll help your argument by admitting that the rules within MMA eliminate many techniques that kung fu favor, but that doesn't mean the kung fu stylist is now weaponless.

What it does show is that too many of you rely on just a handful of so called finishing techniques that you have never even attempted, to base your fighting off. This is the biggest problem with kung fu people... thinking they can pull off throat strikes, eye pokes and groin attacks in a combat situation, when they can't even throw a proper punch in a sport situation. Too many believe they can win with techniques they've never tried, and find out when they reach for these same techniques they aren't nearly as easy to pull off as they thought. jeff

I'm not saying that kung fu practitioners can't fight without using these lethal strikes. What I am say is that if needed they can use them. It would be like telling a jiu jitsu stylist that he can't use a rear naked choke or an arm bar when fighting. ALOT of the techniques used in kung fu are to vital areas such as the throat, temple, eyes, and groin. I'm not going to go for those areas specifically but its nice to know that I have that option if need be. In sporting events those targets are not allowed but in real life they are allowed since there are no rules. Thats why kung fu stylists will get beat in the ring but stand a better chance on the street. And yes kung fu stylists can get beat on the streets, I'm not saying they can't. But once again I go back to my arguement that it's the fighters skill not the art he practices that makes the fighter.

[jmd161]

I wouldn't say ,"Most", until you have met most of them. There are thousands of true sifus all over the world and i think we need to be careful of painting with too big a brush. Many of the best fighters in KUng Fu, you will never see. Especially on you tube although you can see some of them.

I use most because just like my sifu most real true traditional sifu refuse to teach openly in a school open to the public. There are exceptions to that, but they are few and far between.

I agree with you not being able to find many of the real deal guys because they don't want all the attention. Or the headaches associated with dealing with kung fu today.

jeff

This is indeed true, but too many schools don't spend enough time working on such techniques! Most kung fu schoosl including some of my former schools worked on flashy techniques that were changed or altered to give them more appeal in tournaments. The problem lies in too many people not knowing what to look for or being scared to tell their sifu they want to learn how to fight, and not the tournament stuff.

Of course, then most sifu turn around and say " we don't teach the actual fighting applications until you have proven yourself " mumbo jumbo. Very few sifu actually know how to fight these days because they never trained to fight while learning and have never fought using what they've learned all those yrs.

jeff

I wouldn't say ,"Most", until you have met most of them. There are thousands of true sifus all over the world and i think we need to be careful of painting with too big a brush. Many of the best fighters in KUng Fu, you will never see. Especially on you tube although you can see some of them.

[jmd161]

I was sparring with a master the other day in the Seven Star Praying mantist style and alot of the techniques we use are not just poking and attacking the vitals. It has to do with grappling and locking and shifting balance. There are many wonderful close quarter techniques that can be used.

This is indeed true, but too many schools don't spend enough time working on such techniques! Most kung fu schoosl including some of my former schools worked on flashy techniques that were changed or altered to give them more appeal in tournaments. The problem lies in too many people not knowing what to look for or being scared to tell their sifu they want to learn how to fight, and not the tournament stuff.

Of course, then most sifu turn around and say " we don't teach the actual fighting applications until you have proven yourself " mumbo jumbo. Very few sifu actually know how to fight these days because they never trained to fight while learning and have never fought using what they've learned all those yrs.

jeff

[jubaji]

There are many wonderful close quarter techniques that can be used.

"Can be used?" How about "are used?"

I'm really starting to question the level of experience and skill of some of the so called experienced kung fu stylist on this forum. They make the same argument as a novice kung fu stylist. We are supposed to believe They can pull off killer techniques, when they can't even fight without striking the throat, eyes or groin?

This is what I mean about people trying to argue for kung fu and making it look even more foolish. To say you can't fight without striking those areas shows that this person has no experience in using their kung fu as well as actual fighting experience. I agree kung fu was not created for sport, but real combat, but not every strike within kung fu are "The Deadly" like many kung fu stylist want you to believe. I'll help your argument by admitting that the rules within MMA eliminate many techniques that kung fu favor, but that doesn't mean the kung fu stylist is now weaponless.

What it does show is that too many of you rely on just a handful of so called finishing techniques that you have never even attempted, to base your fighting off. This is the biggest problem with kung fu people... thinking they can pull off throat strikes, eye pokes and groin attacks in a combat situation, when they can't even throw a proper punch in a sport situation. Too many believe they can win with techniques they've never tried, and find out when they reach for these same techniques they aren't nearly as easy to pull off as they thought.


jeff

I was sparring with a master the other day in the Seven Star Praying mantist style and alot of the techniques we use are not just poking and attacking the vitals. It has to do with grappling and locking and shifting balance. There are many wonderful close quarter techniques that can be used.

[jubaji]

I'm really starting to question the level of experience and skill of some of the so called experienced kung fu stylist on this forum.

You got that right.




Thanks for adding good and reasonable posts.

[jmd161]

Maybe its because alot of the techniques in kung fu aren't for sport. Maybe thats why other styles such as BJJ beats a kung fu person in sport. If you take away the techniques in kung fu that would enable him/her to win then how can they compete? I'm talking about strikes to the throat, temple, groin, eyes, ears, etc.... Kung fu has some techniques that can be dangerous that aren't permitted to be used in sport due to rules and regulations. To say that grappling arts are superior than kung fu because they dominate sport events where other styles compete is only accurate when speaking of sport events not real combat. Also, it's not about the art, it's about the person doing the art and thier skill level.

I'm really starting to question the level of experience and skill of some of the so called experienced kung fu stylist on this forum. They make the same argument as a novice kung fu stylist. We are supposed to believe They can pull off killer techniques, when they can't even fight without striking the throat, eyes or groin?

This is what I mean about people trying to argue for kung fu and making it look even more foolish. To say you can't fight without striking those areas shows that this person has no experience in using their kung fu as well as actual fighting experience. I agree kung fu was not created for sport, but real combat, but not every strike within kung fu are "The Deadly" like many kung fu stylist want you to believe. I'll help your argument by admitting that the rules within MMA eliminate many techniques that kung fu favor, but that doesn't mean the kung fu stylist is now weaponless.

What it does show is that too many of you rely on just a handful of so called finishing techniques that you have never even attempted, to base your fighting off. This is the biggest problem with kung fu people... thinking they can pull off throat strikes, eye pokes and groin attacks in a combat situation, when they can't even throw a proper punch in a sport situation. Too many believe they can win with techniques they've never tried, and find out when they reach for these same techniques they aren't nearly as easy to pull off as they thought.


jeff

[jubaji]

Maybe its because alot of the techniques in kung fu aren't for sport. Maybe thats why other styles such as BJJ beats a kung fu person in sport. If you take away the techniques in kung fu that would enable him/her to win then how can they compete? I'm talking about strikes to the throat, temple, groin, eyes, ears, etc.... Kung fu has some techniques that can be dangerous that aren't permitted to be used in sport due to rules and regulations.

Ok, so where are all these kungfu folks beating the snot out of everyone outside of sport?

[JadeDragon]

TigerClaw,

I just have two questions for you...

You are aware that stylist from this sport, kick so called traditional kung fu stylist butt all the time, aren't you?

And...

How can you prove kung fu is superior in combat, when it can't even compete in sport?
jeff

Maybe its because alot of the techniques in kung fu aren't for sport. Maybe thats why other styles such as BJJ beats a kung fu person in sport. If you take away the techniques in kung fu that would enable him/her to win then how can they compete? I'm talking about strikes to the throat, temple, groin, eyes, ears, etc.... Kung fu has some techniques that can be dangerous that aren't permitted to be used in sport due to rules and regulations. To say that grappling arts are superior than kung fu because they dominate sport events where other styles compete is only accurate when speaking of sport events not real combat. Also, it's not about the art, it's about the person doing the art and thier skill level.