Misconceptions of kung fu practitioners

[USArmyBJJ]

A personal question for you KOTH? Are you quite a big guy? It's just that what you described for escaping the mount sounds like a big guy muscling off a smaller or similar size guy who doesn't understand maintaining the mount.

From what I can picture of what he is describing, that's what it sounds like. Of course, it's not going to work on a trained grappler. But, I don't think KOTF is really focusing on defeating a trained grappler. He's focused more on defeating your average street guy who probably doesn't have the balance, technique, etc. to be as adept at obtaining the mount.

Still, I think moving from bridge to knee-to-elbow is a more viable and higher percentage escape from mount. (Certainly it's higher percentage than attempting to bite someone's crotch which would only work if you have a neck like a giraffe, or if he's hung like one)

As much as like BJJ, you should remember that stuff that may not work against an experienced BJJ'er will work against an 'average' thug and may even be more economical, the guys at Submissions101.com also demonstrate some similar ideas. I really enjoy BJJ and do rate it highly but just keep in mind there are other 'takes' on these moves, although I think you have to be able to roll first before you can really make use of them.

Agreed. But, I'm not sure why someone wouldn't just want to learn the basic BJJ escapes in order to figure their way on the ground? It seems a more efficient way to learn.

[kingoftheforest]

Which post are you talking about?

They're the secret one's hidden in the cracker jacks.

[jubaji]

Still, I think moving from bridge to knee-to-elbow is a more viable and higher percentage escape from mount. (Certainly it's higher percentage than attempting to bite someone's crotch which would only work if you have a neck like a giraffe, or if he's hung like one).

LOL! Exactly.

[Junka]

I also studied some JJJ and judo so that may be why. BJJ is relatively new and is closely related to these 2 arts.

And it's KOTF(kingoftheforest). I'd love to be KOTH(kingofthehill) but I'm no Hank.

Cool, I'll watch for those typos next time

Actually I noticed that the submission101 guys are also from JJJ. Like you say, they're all related arts in the end. As to the mount escape, I pictured something very different then. I'm always looking at alternatives myself too and if I'm ever in your neck of the woods I'll pop in and take a class.

I was looking at Geoff Thompson's Animal Day earlier and in it he also has some alternative takes on grappling which look really good.

[Junka]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junka View Post
As much as like BJJ, you should remember that stuff that may not work against an experienced BJJ'er will work against an 'average' thug and may even be more economical, the guys at Submissions101.com also demonstrate some similar ideas. I really enjoy BJJ and do rate it highly but just keep in mind there are other 'takes' on these moves, although I think you have to be able to roll first before you can really make use of them.

Agreed. But, I'm not sure why someone wouldn't just want to learn the basic BJJ escapes in order to figure their way on the ground? It seems a more efficient way to learn.

That's basically what I was saying when I said you should be able roll first.

[Junka]

YouTube - The Fence - Geoff Thompson - Clip 2

That's the Geoff Thompson clip I was referring to. Notice the arm bar at 02:33, it's the strikes to set it up to prevent the person maybe struggling as you try to get it on, especially if you're a beginner and not that slick yet.

[kingoftheforest]

Armbar isn't something we advocate doing on the street.

We don't really train for armbars or locks or submissions.


As for "rolling first".

JJJ and Judo are the arts that BJJ came from. I've studied both those quite a lot. I never memorized the japanese names but I do know the moves.

I don't think there is anything in BJJ that isn't found in JJJ or Judo.

I find the big difference between JJJ/Judo and BJJ is that I was taught in JJJ/Judo to strike or stun your opponent and unbalance them before you take them to the ground. Or to even take them to the ground with the strike or unrooting technique.

I feel that teaching the strike first is better for SD than just grabbing someone.

Also in KF the same movement that is a strike is also a hold a lock and a throw. it depends on timing, position, and what the other guy/guys is/are doing.

[USArmyBJJ]

Armbar isn't something we advocate doing on the street.

That seems smart to me, to be honest. I wouldn't risk going for an armbar in the "street." It would seem like a mistake to potentially sacrifice position in order to go for one. Chokes, on the other hand, seem less risky to me.

JJJ and Judo are the arts that BJJ came from. I've studied both those quite a lot. I never memorized the japanese names but I do know the moves.

I don't think there is anything in BJJ that isn't found in JJJ or Judo.

Judo and JJJ have a much greater emphasis on standing grappling, whereas BJJ has a much greater emphasis on ground work. Therefore, BJJ's ground game is much more developed and yes, there are are things found in BJJ that aren't found in JJJ or Judo as a result of that - just ask the Submissions101 guys.

I find the big difference between JJJ/Judo and BJJ is that I was taught in JJJ/Judo to strike or stun your opponent and unbalance them before you take them to the ground. Or to even take them to the ground with the strike or unrooting technique.

The big difference is where their focus is.

I feel that teaching the strike first is better for SD than just grabbing someone.

Agreed. If someone is interested in self-defense on the "street," I have no idea why they wouldn't focus both on striking and grappling. Both are likely to happen in a fight.

Also in KF the same movement that is a strike is also a hold a lock and a throw. it depends on timing, position, and what the other guy/guys is/are doing.

I'd like to see an example of this, if possible. It seems that when you take into account momentum and resistance, you'd really have little chance of striking someone (at least with any power behind it) and using that same strike to lock and throw.

[kingoftheforest]

Judo and JJJ have a much greater emphasis on standing grappling, whereas BJJ has a much greater emphasis on ground work. Therefore, BJJ's ground game is much more developed and yes, there are are things found in BJJ that aren't found in JJJ or Judo as a result of that - just ask the Submissions101 guys.

I guess that's why BJJ doesn't appeal to me. I don't train submission and I don't see any use for them in SD. Therefore if BJJ's difference is submission it doesn't fit into my personal curriculum.


As for "standing grappling" in JJJ/Judo that's there method of gaining position and taking the opponent to the ground, but it still is focused on going to the ground.

Mongolian wrestling would be the KF equivalent to this, but once again that's based more on striking and unrooting. Search around there's a thread by Boarspear on here about it. He explained it great.

[USArmyBJJ]

I guess that's why BJJ doesn't appeal to me. I don't train submission and I don't see any use for them in SD. Therefore if BJJ's difference is submission it doesn't fit into my personal curriculum.

Note that I didn't say the difference was in "submission." I said the difference was in the relative focus on groundwork vs. standing grappling.

I'm interested in why you would be against chokes for SD? We definitely agree on armbars. But why would you be against choking techniques?

As for "standing grappling" in JJJ/Judo that's there method of gaining position and taking the opponent to the ground, but it still is focused on going to the ground.

It's focused largely on standing grappling - which includes throws, wrist locks, trips, etc. There certainly is ground work involved, but the focus is mostly the standing aspect of it. Whereas, the focus of bjj is the ground aspect of it. Some people are turned off by that, others are not. Personally, I think you're limiting yourself quite seriously if you think you will always be able to avoid going to the ground. It happens, and best be prepared for it. I'm not saying that you think that. But it is something to consider.

I'm still interested in the "strike, lock, throw" concept you alluded to earlier. Do you have any vid examples of it?

[kingoftheforest]

Note that I didn't say the difference was in "submission." I said the difference was in the relative focus on groundwork vs. standing grappling.

I'm interested in why you would be against chokes for SD? We definitely agree on armbars. But why would you be against choking techniques?



It's focused largely on standing grappling - which includes throws, wrist locks, trips, etc. There certainly is ground work involved, but the focus is mostly the standing aspect of it. Whereas, the focus of bjj is the ground aspect of it. Some people are turned off by that, others are not. Personally, I think you're limiting yourself quite seriously if you think you will always be able to avoid going to the ground. It happens, and best be prepared for it. I'm not saying that you think that. But it is something to consider.

I'm still interested in the "strike, lock, throw" concept you alluded to earlier. Do you have any vid examples of it?

We are now moving into that same territory that destroyed another thread, so at this point I feel I have said all I need to say. If you feel some need for more just look up my past threads and posts it's all in there.

Good Day.

[USArmyBJJ]

Not really sure what you're talking about. But, as you wish.

[Junka]

That seems smart to me, to be honest. I wouldn't risk going for an armbar in the "street." It would seem like a mistake to potentially sacrifice position in order to go for one. Chokes, on the other hand, seem less risky to me.

The arm bar vid I posted was just by way of an example of Geoff Thompson's stuff, and alternative 'street' variations on classic BJJ moves. Whilst on the subject though, Geoff was a doorman and therefore pins and submissions were obviously useful there, as could situations where you're best mate has had a drink too many and you're just tieing him up while your buddies come to help him too a taxi home. One of the things I like about BJJ is being able to have control without necessarily doing a lot of damage.

When I said 'rolling first' it could be any grappling covering the same ground by way of sparring.

[jubaji]

we are now moving into that same territory that destroyed another thread, so at this point i feel i have said all i need to say.

lol!!!!!!!!

[kingoftheforest]

Not exact but close.

YouTube - GROUND DEFENSE 1