Sanshou vs Judo

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I was bored and was scrounging through the labyrinth known as Youtube when I stumbled across some Sanshou technique video. Although They share a lot of similarities, at the same time the throw principles seem to be completely different.

For instance, look at these 2 techniques.
This one is called Morote Seoi Nage in Judo:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EkxoG45sQ[/YOUTUBE]

Notice the feet positioning and how it aids to pop the opponent up and over.

Now lets look at the Sanshou version of this throw called Pei:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huRIbKKRA9c&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

Note the feet positioning once again. Notice how it's a more penetrating step and the throw direction seems to be completely different. In this throw the Tori (person throwing) is launching the Uke (person being thrown) way the f*ck out there while in the Judo variation they are throwing them directly in front of their feet.
I actually talked to one of my Judo coaches about a step like that and he said it is ill-advised since when you position your legs like that, when you start to drive you're going to end up pushing them backwards, counter intuitive to you throw.

---
Another example here is this throw:
In judo, it is called Osotogari:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjfBnTMn1c[/YOUTUBE]
Notice the unbalancing for this throw, all weight of Uke is placed on the leg that is about to be swept. Also note when Tori sweeps, his foot never touches the ground again until Uke is thrown and landed. This is key in that it provides maximum momentum and power in that sweep.

For the Sanshou version of this throw, Nao Qie Zi:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee8kQICyEIM&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]
Notice how Tori has his sweeping leg planted on the ground and he hops forward to throw Uke. The unbalancing portion seems to be the same idea.

----

From the way it seems, the ideas of how to throw are very different. What may be the way it is done in one art is completely different for another. Heck I'd even go so far as to say that if, for example, we took those sanshou movements and took them into a Judo class, they'd be regarded as bad technique and vice versa as well.

Anyone ever try these different variations of the throws and have they worked for you? Which kind of variation works best for you?

[Tant01]

Indeed! Awesome questions! I'll try to reply a bit more in depth when I have time but for now I'll just say that Judo does not condone VERY destructive techniques. There is a good reason why HIGH risk of INJURY is equal to so called "IMPROPER" technique.

The idea is NOT to hurt your UKE so he can practice with you tomorrow!

Friendly Judo Vs. JUJUTSU? Again, one is SAFE... the other for killing and maiming...

Play nice!

[jubaji]

It would be interesting to compare injury rates between judo and sanshou as pertains to throws.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

It would be interesting to compare injury rates between judo and sanshou as pertains to throws.

Indeed another interesting thing that should be addressed! Something that should also be looked at are the wrestling versions of these throws, once again, although sharing similarity, they also have differences.

[csc]

the Sanshou version of this throw called Pei:
YouTube - www.shuaijiao.tv Technique of the Week

Why did you call this Shanshou? It's Shuai Chiao, Shuai Jiao, or Chinese wrestling. Shanshou is the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw and that's kickboxing + throw.

Anyone ever try these different variations of the throws and have they worked for you? Which kind of variation works best for you?

The Judo version Osotogari is the traditional SC (Shuai Chiao) version of Qie (front cut). The Nao Qie Zi is the modified version of the Qie (front cut). The reason of the modification is because you can use front cut to counter front cut if you and your opponent have the same control. The modified version is to secure your balance first and then use your body momentum to push your opponent down instead of using your leg cutting and arm pushing to throw.

You can get much lower in bow-arrow stance than horse stance when you use Pei or Morote Seoi Nage. Also if you are in a bow-arrow stance, your back foot is ready to kick at your opponent's head when he falls down right in front of you (throwing your opponent down is not the end of the fight by CMA standard).

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Why did you call this Shanshou? It's Shuai Chiao, Shuai Jiao, or Chinese wrestling. Shanshou is the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw and that's kickboxing + throw.


The Judo version Osotogari is the traditional SC (Shuai Chiao) version of Qie (front cut). The Nao Qie Zi is the modified version of the Qie (front cut). The reason of the modification is because you can use front cut to counter front cut if you and your opponent have the same control. The modified version is to secure your balance first and then use your body momentum to push your opponent down instead of using your leg cutting and arm pushing to throw.

You can get much lower in bow-arrow stance than horse stance when you use Pei or Morote Seoi Nage. Also if you are in a bow-arrow stance, your back foot is ready to kick at your opponent's head when he falls down right in front of you (throwing your opponent down is not the end of the fight by CMA standard).

That would be an error on my part when I was naming the thread.

In regards to the Morote Seoi Nage and Pei, I personally feel the squared stance allow for much more lift and has a lower chance that your opponent will slide around you instead of up and over. When your leg is back like that even if Uke was not resisting it seems fairly easy to slide around the hip through the course of the throw. The throw seems rather forced with the leg set up like that, seems more arm power then leg.

[csc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huRIbKKRA9c&feature=channel_page

This hand control in SC is called "side door control". I have heard that the side door control (one hand grab on the sleeve while another hand grab on the "same" side lapel) is not allowed in Judo. Is it true? Any Judo expert?

[Bjjexpertise@be]

YouTube - www.shuaijiao.tv Technique of the Week

This hand control in SC is called "side door control". I have heard that the side door control (one hand grab on the sleeve while another hand grab on the "same" side lapel) is not allowed in Judo. Is it true? Any Judo expert?

The grip you're talking about is allowed in Judo, you just have to attack within every 3 seconds you have the grip or you receive a penalty.

[csc]

The grip you're talking about is allowed in Judo, you just have to attack within every 3 seconds you have the grip or you receive a penalty.

I can understand that because a strong side door hold can be very effective in defense.

You use can side door hold to apply Osoto Gari and smash your elbow at your opponent's face. It's more powerful than the normal Judo lapel hold IMO.

http://johnswang.com/sc23.wmv

[csc]

I can understand that because a strong side door hold can be very effective in defense. You can use side door hold to apply Osoto Gari and smash your elbow at your opponent's face. It's very easy to see the big difference in mind set (combat vs. sport) between SC and Judo from this clip.

http://johnswang.com/sc23.wmv

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I can understand that because a strong side door hold can be very effective in defense. You can use side door hold to apply Osoto Gari and smash your elbow at your opponent's face. It's very easy to see the big difference in mind set (combat vs. sport) between SC and Judo from this clip.

http://johnswang.com/sc23.wmv

The one thing that really messed with me for a while is just the numerous ways you can do each throw in Judo. I had 5 or 6 coaches teaching me the same throw in completely different ways, confused the hell out of me lol (main reason why my Uchi-Mata is so fucked up now and putting it on hold). That was actually the way one of my coaches taught me to throw it in competition. Hit them in the face with the elbow and drive through.

It would be great to see Judo, Shuaijiao, and wrestlers intermingle and spar with each other.

[csc]

IMO the Uchi-Mata (leg lift) may be the most challenged throw in the throwing art.

You can hold on:

- neck (head lock)
- under hook
- upper lapel (behind the neck)
- front waist belt

You can use right horse back kick at your opponent's:

- left upper inside leg.
- between his legs.
- right upper inside leg.

You can use your:

- leg power only, or
- hip power along with your leg power.

The counter for this move is even more challenged.

It would be great to see Judo, Shuaijiao, and wrestlers intermingle and spar with each other.

The Judo guys may think the SC guys use "too much force" and not follow the Judo principle "use the minimum effect to achieve the maximum result". IMO the "minimum effort" principle can only apply if you can borrow your opponent's force but sometime you just don't have that opportunity. This is why SC guys will spend more time in the equipment training. IMO it's better to be as rich as Bill Gates so you don't need to borrow.

By definition, SC is a sport of "strength" which is big difference from the Judo approach.

[Tant01]

Combat Judo

IMO the Uchi-Mata (leg lift) may be the most challenged throw in the throwing art.

You can hold on:

- neck (head lock)
- under hook
- upper lapel (behind the neck)
- front waist belt

You can use right horse back kick at your opponent's:

- left upper inside leg.
- between his legs.
- right upper inside leg.

You can use your:

- leg power only, or
- hip power along with your leg power.

The counter for this move is even more challenged.


The Judo guys may think the SC guys use "too much force" and not follow the Judo principle "use the minimum effect to achieve the maximum result". IMO the "minimum effort" principle can only apply if you can borrow your opponent's force but sometime you just don't have that opportunity. This is why SC guys will spend more time in the equipment training. IMO it's better to be as rich as Bill Gates so you do need to borrow.

By definition, SC is a sport of "strength" which is big difference from the Judo approach.

Intent is everything... Lose the measure of good sportsmanship and break something!

Throw in some atemi, smash them as hard as you like. Break things before, during or after your throw of choice. It's all good (JUJUTSU) Hell... add a short knife and do some "surgery" while you're at it.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

IMO the Uchi-Mata (leg lift) may be the most challenged throw in the throwing art.

You can hold on:

- neck (head lock)
- under hook
- upper lapel (behind the neck)
- front waist belt

You can use right horse back kick at your opponent's:

- left upper inside leg.
- between his legs.
- right upper inside leg.

You can use your:

- leg power only, or
- hip power along with your leg power.

The counter for this move is even more challenged.

Actually, contrary to what a lot of people may think, the leg is not what makes the throw. If an Uchi-Mata is executed with perfect technique, the leg should sweep nothing (this includes HaraiGoshi and Hane Goshi).

Getting the right pull from the standard lapel/sleeve grip is probably the hardest thing for UchiMata. The throw is a lot easier with an over the back or high collar grip. As a short guy, both of those are incredibly hard to do on someone taller than me. The only successful player I've seen throw with a standard grip is Kosei Inoue, and that's just one bad bad mofo that you don't want to mess with.

That's alright though, I've been working on my Tai-Otoshi and it seems to be working miracles for me.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

The Judo guys may think the SC guys use "too much force" and not follow the Judo principle "use the minimum effect to achieve the maximum result". IMO the "minimum effort" principle can only apply if you can borrow your opponent's force but sometime you just don't have that opportunity. This is why SC guys will spend more time in the equipment training. IMO it's better to be as rich as Bill Gates so you don't need to borrow.

By definition, SC is a sport of "strength" which is big difference from the Judo approach.

Well the idea of borrowing your opponent's force is always exaggerated to the point where people imagine one person charging with arms flailing at another person and then being thrown, it's actually a lot more subtle than that. Just for an example, if I were to hit a footsweep on Uke, he steps back and there is a split second where he has to come forward in order to regain balance. That little shift of weight is all that's needed to borrow his force.
In High level Judo competition footage, this kind of subtlety is really hard to see. All the throws though come from borrowing the opponent's force, whether it's compromising their position by dominating them with superior grips to something as simple as them getting thrown as they come forward just a little to try to get a grip.

I definitely back up the idea of building muscular strength and endurance. In a free movement sport like wrestling, judo, shuaijiao, etc, physical attributes definitely are needed along with technique.