why I left kungfu

[mellow]

It was his best post yet until that particular paragraph.

[jubaji]

One of my students was practicing on a bag a while ago and a arrogant young man came and watched him and was in a mocking type of attitude. I believe he was more in the MMA crowd. My student is a humble man and does not seek to fight anyone. but this guy was a loudmouth arrogant type, so he attacked him and as he did my student shifted back in stances and deflected his attacks and the man tried a shoot attack on him, he quickly countered and the man was flat on his face, as I remember from what he told me. The man realized that my student had real kung fu training and he was quieter after that and saw the effectivness of kung fu.

The last time you told us this little fairytale it was YOU and not your student who starred in this bad kungfu movie plot.

Just wondering. What's your motivation for making yet another "Kung Fu sucks, MMA rulz" thread? And wouldn't this be better in the MMA/BJJ forum?

I will say this again. (or not)
__________________

[mellow]

Just wondering. What's your motivation for making yet another "Kung Fu sucks, MMA rulz" thread? And wouldn't this be better in the MMA/BJJ forum?

[kiddbjj]

to be fair I think my old kung fu school was pretty good compared to other places i have seen.

The training was physically exhausting and mentally demanding and the atmosphere was open to questioning but still very much traditional ie. everyone knew their place in the pecking order. i was brought to the verge of tears on at least a few occassions I can remember during brutal conditioning sessions that had me wiped out for days after (they did the trick though as at my fittest point I was able to perform 140 pushups consecutively, 140 situps consecutively, followed immediately by 50 burpees, 50 plyometric jumps then 50 one leged squats). Brutal.

We spent plenty of time working basics in the air and on pads; kicks punches hand strikes elbows knees as well as forms and applications. By a large the forms and applications were impractical and only seemed useful on compliant partners (though they were very good for anaerobic conditioning). I was there for 6 years (others had been there for 15-20) and they still were unable to perform much of what was taught in the forms or applications during sparring. At the time i thought this was odd (for example no one ever was able to perform a mantis hand catch where you parry and grab the wrist of an opponents punch, yet this was one of the foundation movements of the style). But eventually I just thought of the forms and applications as improving my balance and coordination, whilst the pad work, basics and sparring drills helped with the fighting aspect. Interestingly the Master of the style had introduced the pad and basics work after being influenced by Bruce Lee and Mas Oyama. It had not been part of the training he had undertaken in HongKong.

When we sparred we took advantage of all targets but were expected to go light to the head and groin. Hard kicks, punches, elbows, knees to the body and legs were accepted amongst the senior students however i came to realise that (much like Kyokoshin Karate) this style of sparring does little to improve your ability to defend against punches to the face. It also means that your ability to read and avoid full power strikes is poor and your ability to slip, cover and parry are marginal. This is a major weakness and I guess has more to do with the method of training or the limits placed on sparring for the sake of safety than the style per se.

At the time I had an insatiable thirst for martial arts knowledge and often watched videos and read books on other styles. During my last 2 years training KF i discovered BJJ via the UFC, and also Muay Thai videos. One thing that struck me almost instantly about Muay Thai in particular was the mechanics used. These were quite different to the way we were learning to strike in KF and the difference in power output was phenomenal(sp?) to say the least. I can honestly say that Muay Thai strikes are far more powerful than what we were doing in KF, simply because the mechanics were so much better. Too much of KF strikes, particularly hand strikes, simply do not generate enough power. The chain punch is a classic example as it relies on the shoulder and triceps without much help from the hips. The punches are super fast dont get me wrong, but the power output is woeful compared to a boxing style right cross or even a stiff jab. And don't even compare them to a boxers hook, those things REGULARLY end fights in the ring and the street thanks to power transfer from the legs and hips. Sacrificing power for speed seems on the surface to be a good idea as it allows continuous barrages of strikes, but I can tell you from experience that good boxers/thai fighters are more than capable of weathering a barrage of weak but fast strikes by covering and waiting to take your head off with a hook or elbow.

We also spent time learning weapons forms and some applications, though again these were largely impractical. At the very least they made you comfortable with a variety of traditional weapons in your hands and you could generate a good powerful blow with them. I only recall doing weapon vs weapon sparring on one occasion during the 6 years, though we sometimes did empty hand vs stick or knife. A good eye opener that defending weapons is tough work.

We also spent a good amount of time discussing chinese philosophy and practicing meditation. This was interesting and enlightening but again, it took away from time that could have been used to develop fighting skill.

Overall I would say it was an excellent school with great teachers however, as seems to be the case with KF, the style is simply too broad and tries to be too many things for too many people. Its simply not possible to become a skillful fighter, forms demonstrator, philosopher, spiritualist, athlete and weapons person without dedicating your life to the entire KF existence completely. and even then I would say that it is still unlikely as everyone has their favourite specialisation. I have been to China twice and seen the Shaolin monks; although they are excellent athletes (acrobats) and perform beautiful forms, most cannot fight for nuts. Only the ones who specialise in Sanda/San Shou or even Shiao Jiao have some combat ability (from what I have personally observed). And i believe that any honest sanda coach would admit that the punching in sanda could benefit greatly from cross-training in western boxing the same way that Muay Thai has improved its punching.

Lastly, one of the biggest issues I have is that most kung fu schools fall into the big fish small pong trap, whereby they rarely if ever test themselves against other styles or schools even within their own style. Contrast this with the combat sports (BJJ, MMA, boxing etc) where you can match yourself against anyone in the town, state or world and this is quite the normal and acceptable practice because it keeps the style evolving and growing. KF seems to stagnate and in some cases regress.

So thats a bit more of my opinions for you guys to tear apart: enjoy!

[knifethrower]

shazzam...

[jubaji]

Ah, they must have activated their secret signal rings!

[knifethrower]

There are a couple of hair dressers here who are sure to take your experiences as a personal offense to them and a certain ponytailed old man with whom they are unnaturally 'close.' Don't worry it about it too much.

There you go again you horny little puppy...

don't get too excited now...

[Ben Grimm]

He'll never get the message.

[jubaji]

tigerclown, haven't you gotten the message yet? STFU.

When I was in a few kung fu clubs we sparred hard and fought very rough. Often on hard floors.

[kingoftheforest]

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[jubaji]

There are a couple of hair dressers here who are sure to take your experiences as a personal offense to them and a certain ponytailed old man with whom they are unnaturally 'close.' Don't worry it about it too much.

[kiddbjj]

my apologies, you're correct I have over generalised in my post. I just have very mixed feelings about my time in kung fu. I learnt some great things but also think I wasted so much of my fittest years learning an impractical style.

all the best

[jubaji]

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